B vs W

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:47 am

Joaz Banbeck wrote:I don't like to publicly contradict another board member, but this is bad advice.

Yes, you should learn joseki. But you should learn why they are played.

Take them apart, looking at them move by move. Try to figure out why each move is necessary. Then you will really understand the joseki.

Furthermore, you will be developing the skills to analyze joseki over the board, so if your opponent springs a surprise on you, you'll be able to handle it. If you just memorize, when you encounter a joseki that you haven't memorized, you are screwed.

Joaz you can disagree with me anytime. that is what the forum is for..
when i was weak as he was i tried to memorized all josekies. it starts from there and you will learn tricks and deviations as time goes.
i am looking at hailthorn011's approach move and it was disturbing.
that play will not help him improve. what he needs is basic joseki knowledge so he can refrain from that akward moves.

Harleqin · Post by **Harleqin** » Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:19 am

My advice is to play on smaller boards first. That has the advantage of teaching you the foundations in fast games, instead of endless confusathons on board too big to grasp.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:47 am

daniel_the_smith wrote:.. for a 28k, there's very little hope of figuring out why a particular move is joseki...

I disagree with this. Mind you, I'm not suggesting that he has to do it entirely on his own.
He can ask questions of stronger players and read beginners books. They might provide him with answers.

However it is done, I have faith in the OP. I think that he can figure out why joseki is joseki, even if he is indeed only 28K. And he can do it counting on the fingers of one hand.

I'll post more on this later.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:49 am

I think people learn in different ways. The most important thing is to have interest.

Aphelion · Post by **Aphelion** » Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:29 pm

If you catch me on KGS I don't mind help out a bit either, maybe a teaching game or review. I'm Aphelion02 on KGS.

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:05 pm

A fairly good place to go if you do want to learn a few josekis is [url]eidogo.com[/url]. If I may offer my personal opinion, I think it's important to learn a few basic joseki, but not to overdo it. I also would recommend trying to figure out why moves are joseki, but don't despair if you cannot figure it out. Here are a few basic joseki that I feel are important to know. Even if you cannot remember the whole thing, if you can at least remember the first couple of moves you will be in okay shape.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 4 . . 2 . . . $$ | . 3 . X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W 7 can be at a as well $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . 6 . . . $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . $$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . $$ | . . 3 5 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . a 7 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W The 3-3 invasion - do not play too early, or else black gets too much influence on outisde. Save for when the first joseki I showed you know longer seems good. $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 9 0 . . . . $$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . $$ | . . 3 X . . . . . $$ | . 5 4 . . . . . . $$ | . 7 6 . . . . . . $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm11 $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 O X . . . . $$ | . . O X . 2 . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . O X . . . . . . $$ | . O X . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

It may help to play these variations out on a physical board if you have one (or, failing that, play them out on your computer).

I think that beyond these, there is not much need to know joseki for beginners. You should definitely try out more moves than these (your pincer in the bottom right was nice, for instance), but in those cases I think it's fine to make it up as you go. You'll discover more joseki as you play.

More importantly IMO is to play other people again and again until you have some experience under your belt. Getting taught is nice and all, but is no substitute for playing a bunch of games and learning for yourself. Don't be afraid to play others on sites like [url]gokgs.com[/url], as there are plenty of people just as weak as you and you will get first-hand experience on how to play better. Also, if you have someone in real life you can play, that can be invaluable as well.

I also started off Go by playing against GNUGo, and let me tell you, it really didn't help me. It was only through playing others that I got stronger.

Good luck, and if you have any questions, just ask!

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:40 pm

As I said in a previous post, I think that the OP can learn why joseki is joseki, even if he is 28K. Even if he learned how to play last week.

Let's look at the game. We'll start with the first joseki ( or approximation thereto ) that arises.

Here is the game at move 5. Up through move 4 it could be played by pros. Things go a bit askew with move 5.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Move 1-4 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If a beginner were to study joseki in the manner that I suggested, trying to understand every move, the question that would arise is: "Why can't I play 5 as I did? The joseki books say that 'a' or 'b' is better. Why is that? Why should I be one space further away?"

A really perceptive beginner might universalize the question and say "Why are ALL the josekis making the initial approach from one - or occasionally more - space away, and never closer to the opponent?"

That is an important question in understanding the fundamentals. Think of the common josekis...

We see this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$------------------ $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . 1 . . $$| . . . X . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . .[/go]

But never this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$------------------ $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . 1 . . . $$| . . . X . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . .[/go]

Nor this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$------------------ $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . X 1 . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . .[/go]

If it is the 3-4, we see this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$------------------ $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . X , 1 . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . .[/go]

Or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$------------------ $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . 1 . . . $$| . . X , . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . .[/go]

And occasionally this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$------------------ $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . 1 . . $$| . . X , . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . .[/go]

But never this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$------------------ $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . 1 . . . . $$| . . X , . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . .[/go]

Nor this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$------------------ $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . X 1 . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . .[/go]

With the 5-3, we see this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$------------------ $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . 1 . . . . $$| . . . , . . . . $$| . . X . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . .[/go]

But never this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$------------------ $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . 1 , . . . . $$| . . X . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . .[/go]

============================================================

The initial approach is always at least one space away. There is a reason for that.

If the approach move is real close, a fight starts immediately. And the defender has an advantage of being a move ahead.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc In the local area, white is a move ahead. $$------------------ $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . 3 O 2 . . . $$| . . . 1 . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $${LN B18 F18} $${LN B15 B18} $${LN F15 F18} $${LN F15 B15}[/go]

But if we make an approach with an extra space in between, then if white wants to start a fight he must jump the gap, and and locally black is ahead.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc In the local area, black is a move ahead. $$------------------ $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . . O . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $$| . . 1 2 . . . . $$| . . . 3 . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . $${LN B16 E16} $${LN B13 B16} $${LN E13 E16} $${LN E13 B13}[/go]

It doesn't take much go knowledge to understand this. Anyone can see that it is better to be in the situation where you have the extra stone in a fight, rather than your opponent having the extra stone. You need not even understand how the fight will proceed. More is better. A 28K can understand that.

I say that if the proper questions are asked, the OP can understand why joseki is joseki. The idea explained above shows why the joseki for move 5 is joseki.

PS: Some diligent student of joseki might pop up and say "Well there is this one obscure variation...". Please don't, unless it is a counter-example that truly does refute the idea. I'm trying to teach fundamentals here.
Sure, you can probably find a game in which a pro will play a contact move to open the joseki because both wings are taken by the opponent. That merely illustrates how to play a really wierd situation. It does not teach the beginner about fundamentals.

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:55 pm

Sure, anyone can understand that after you point it out. But to deduce it for yourself from studying joseki? It's probably possible, I'll admit-- but it'd be way more efficient to just ask someone. And speaking of efficiency, at 28k, I think rapidly playing 100+ games against Igowin and then doing graded go problems for beginners vol II is probably the fastest way to improve.

PS I think that "no contact" is a fairly subtle thing, and that it's commonly known only because it filters down from higher-ranked players. I've never seen a beginner figure it out on their own (and sometimes not even after repeated prompting). In fact I still see KGS 3k's play moves like that...

hailthorn011 · Post by **hailthorn011** » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:11 am

Aphelion wrote:If you catch me on KGS I don't mind help out a bit either, maybe a teaching game or review. I'm Aphelion02 on KGS.

I'd accept a teaching game! That would be very helpful and I'd appreciate it quite a bit Aphelion. Thanks for all the ideas on how to improve my game everyone! I'll try all the methods listed here and figure out what works best for me.

schilds · Post by **schilds** » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:38 pm

I think there is a simple and pragmatic reason to memorise and just play out joseki, and that's to eliminate some amount of variability while learning something else.

e.g. "ok, so I played that joseki and ended up with a locally even result, but had trouble for the rest of the game and on reflection, it was because my stones were facing the wrong direction after that sequence", as opposed to "well, I played out some sequence and I don't know if it was any good, and it seems my stones ended up facing the wrong way, but if the result had been locally better, perhaps that direction would have been more interesting anyway, arghhh, I'm so confused and don't even know where to start analysing what went wrong".

Life In 19x19

B vs W

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