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3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=72

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Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:33 pm
by Phelan
From those two comments straight after my move, I must have definitely missed something... :?

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:07 pm
by schultz
Hooray for the Malkovich games being transferred and making it over here. And now I can comment on them...if only I had a question too.

And thanks Dusk Eagle, for grabbing those and zipping them up. Good to have those.

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:09 pm
by fwiffo
Rengo is so funny.

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:20 pm
by schultz
fwiffo wrote:
Rengo is so funny.

Agreed. Half the fun of this game is to see all of the comments (already) of the players complaining, or just being completely surprised by their own teammates. Though it does seem to be a little one sided at the moment. ;)

I thought Violence's comments back at the start of the game make a lot of sense. Have to play taking into account how your fellow players are possibly going to play. Don't make a move with an extremely difficult followup, because your lower ranked teammate will very likely make a mistake. Kind of like Magicwand's double hane. Pretty much everybody was surprised by it, didn't like it, don't know what to do with it, and he's surprised that their not making the followup moves he is expecting.

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:12 pm
by Violence
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37 Move 37 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This cut is so ridiculously ideal..

It feels like I'm slicing a clean line through paper that's just flittering down to the ground.

This really shouldn't have happened.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37 Move 37 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . c . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . d O 1 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . e 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . a , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is obviously much better for white to me, I'm surprised that white counter atari'd. From this position, white has so many options, like to play at a to pressure the corner while aiming to play e, which activates aji in the c area from the cut at b. The ladder from d doesn't work, so there's going to be a big fight in the area, one that I don't think white will come out poorly from. We're still thin, thanks to the stones on our right side being in bad positions to fight, and our center stones are just waiting to be destroyed.

Now that we've connected, the situation has been turned around, I feel.

I wouldn't want to be magicwand right now.

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:25 am
by Magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37 Move 38 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O W . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

oh my god it sucks... just because of one bad bad move table has turned :(
now i have to turn it around again..
why did i play that move???? because i dont wanna be the one who plays the obious move.
i will let my other weaker players play so i can at least play it correctly after that move.
does that make sense to anyone??? :)
simply i had to do something different.

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:51 am
by unkx80
topazg wrote:EDIT: Hahaha, oops, it's my move :D

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm34 Move 34
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I think White can only play this way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm34 Move 34-39
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 6 2 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X 5 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Where 40 is supposed to go I haven't the faintest idea - I wish magicwand hadn't double-haned, this is way too messy :P


What pot is topazg smoking? The only move here is to connect! :P

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:56 am
by topazg
Hmmmm, magicwand has tenuki'd. Did he realise the double hane was a blunder, or was my move bad? I still think his move was just overplay, but I really want to know what he's thinking. I'm going to take "a" below as soon as I get my move, because it's sente, it can't be aji-keshi as there's no real aji there any more, and if Black connects it's mean and nasty. I still think "b" is a good followup, and settles White completely. magicwand's latest move just looks like aji-keshi to me. Sure, there's not much going locally there at the moment, but if doesn't make sense unless White wants to push at "c", which really seems aji-keshi, as I want "d" later.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37 Move 38 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O W . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X a O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . b . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Either he played a trick play that didn't work out because Black cuts, or he wanted me to connect. I'm having a look at the one variation that I didn't really analyse, but I can't find any way of liking it:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35 Move 34 Variations (I)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 O X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 3 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35 Move 34 Variations (II)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 9 . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 O X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , 7 6 . . 2 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . 8 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'd love everyone 4d+ to say whether a) the double hane was overplay, and b) whether my mistake was simply wrong irregardless of the quality of the double hane (i.e. now it has been played White must connect even though it's still not that great for White). I can see we have a comment from unkx80 (but not necessarily on my move), but Bill? Araban? Shapenaji? This sort of position comes a lot with me, and I know I have a habit of sacrificing single stones when I shouldn't, so I'll be keen to read all the feedback when the position resolves :D

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:14 am
by unkx80
topazg wrote:I can see we have a comment from unkx80 (but not necessarily on my move)...

I think it is okay for you to read my comment. It is on your move, but it's also just a one-liner snark.

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:17 am
by topazg
unkx80 wrote:
topazg wrote:I can see we have a comment from unkx80 (but not necessarily on my move)...

I think it is okay for you to read my comment. It is on your move, but it's also just a one-liner snark.


Haha, now I guess my move must have been sucky - White looked so ugly connecting though :D Sheesh, now my paranoia over my moves is going to go up even further :oops:

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:25 am
by unkx80
Hidden from players
I feel that magicwand's push might be premature. If I am black, I am very tempted to play double atari here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39 Move 39 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O W . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:35 am
by daniel_the_smith
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39 Move 39 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O O 1 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Absolutely no thinking required for this move. We must block. I really don't know why magicwand played this, it's usually good to hold this in reserve until you have a tactic, and I don't see one here.

I was quite happy to see Violence's move, as we clearly got a good result there, which seems to vindicate my choice of cutting. I think white must have made some mistake.

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:44 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm40 Move 40 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X 1 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Bleh, having established that my last move sucked, I want to get this in before Black does (or double-atari'd possibly, I don't know which is better). At least this way we get to settle without breaking the top right.

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:57 am
by Phelan
Damn, now I have to pick between going up with something like Q13 or P14 like magicwand seemed to want, or to go south with P4...
I doubt Jordus will do something as unexpected as not connecting.

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:46 am
by daniel_the_smith
Proper rengo strategy is probably to not give the weaker players obvious moves to answer, and do so for the stronger players. I'm pretty sure everyone can make a 9d move in black's current position. :)

I have to play reasonable moves because topazg can probably punish my mistakes, but there's a good chance that topazg could find a decent move with a continuation fuzzy enough that Jordus wouldn't be able to find it. Same could be said for magicwand and me.

You might think that as compensation for giving them that strategy, we have a 4 dan to punish everything Phelan does wrong--but Phelan could just make forcing moves, effectively leaving me to deal with magicwand and Jordus to handle topazg, which should give them a 4+ stone advantage.

I think they got the better end of the deal, but so far I don't think people are playing the metagame very strategically.
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