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Re: First Joseki and Fuseki books
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:53 am
by oren
RobertJasiek wrote:Trusting joseki databases amounts to the illusion that they would have been verified with the same care and be up-to-date and has the disadvantage that they contain so many variations that the user needs work to find the basic variations.
I'm sorry, do you have a point here?
Databases are databases of pro games. It's never been the case I would have to verify a specific game in question especially since most of the time I care about percentages with high numbers.
Re: First Joseki and Fuseki books
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:02 am
by RobertJasiek
I have meant databases or webpage references of josekis. (Databases of pro games are something else. Of course, you can also parse a pro games database for josekis using tools such as Kombilo, but you need a very good memory or need to search again whenever you forgot your earlier queries. And you need the time for doing the queries and the wisdom to do meaningful queries so that you find interesting rather than outdated variations.)
Re: First Joseki and Fuseki books
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:13 am
by oren
RobertJasiek wrote:I have meant databases or webpage references of josekis. (Databases of pro games are something else. Of course, you can also parse a pro games database for josekis using tools such as Kombilo, but you need a very good memory or need to search again whenever you forgot your earlier queries. And you need the time for doing the queries and the wisdom to do meaningful queries so that you find interesting rather than outdated variations.)
Try SmartGo. It's a very easy program for database searching. I don't find I need to have a very good memory for investigating joseki.
Re: First Joseki and Fuseki books
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:21 am
by RobertJasiek
oren wrote:I don't find I need to have a very good memory for investigating joseki.
You investigate them. You play, say a month later, a couple of games. During them, how do you find josekis without having a "very good memory"? Do you or do you not recall every result of your earlier joseki investigation?
Re: First Joseki and Fuseki books
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:26 am
by oren
RobertJasiek wrote:You investigate them. You play, say a month later, a couple of games. During them, how do you find josekis without having a "very good memory"? Do you or do you not recall every result of your earlier joseki investigation?
You look them up again and go through them.... This is not a very hard process with good software.
Re: First Joseki and Fuseki books
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:34 am
by RobertJasiek
1) A dan player should know hundreds of josekis. How do you look them up again every time? Have you built your own joseki variations database?
2) During a game, you may not look up databases, so the possibility of doing so does not replace your memory.
3) How much time have you spent just on compiling your own joseki variations database?
4) How representative is your own joseki variations database? Are you sure not to have overlooked important subtrees and important types of josekis?
Re: First Joseki and Fuseki books
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:39 am
by oren
RobertJasiek wrote: An odd list...
I'm suggesting books and databases...
I don't remember every joseki line in my books nor of course every opening line in tens of thousands of games.
I still have no clue if you have a point in this discussion or are just mindlessly driveling...
Re: First Joseki and Fuseki books
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:57 am
by RobertJasiek
oren wrote:I'm suggesting books and databases...
Ah, ok, and I thought you would be suggesting only databases:)
I still have no clue if you have a point in this discussion or are just mindlessly driveling...
I was trying to find out how using only databases could possibly be good enough. But... since we agree on using both books and databases, I cannot find out from you:)
Re: First Joseki and Fuseki books
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:00 pm
by Bill Spight
RobertJasiek wrote:1) A dan player should know hundreds of josekis. How do you look them up again every time? Have you built your own joseki variations database?
I own a few joseki references, and GoGoD.
2) During a game, you may not look up databases, so the possibility of doing so does not replace your memory.
3) How much time have you spent just on compiling your own joseki variations database?
Zero time.
4) How representative is your own joseki variations database? Are you sure not to have overlooked important subtrees and important types of josekis?
My study of joseki began with a book about joseki mistakes. My second book on joseki was how to play after joseki. I have no regrets for choosing that course of study. Rather than simply trying to memorize joseki, I started off getting some understanding of why joseki plays are good. Then I learned something about the future aims of joseki. That helps me decide between two play that are not bad locally.
My third book was the Kitani-Suzuki Small Joseki Dictionary, which, as people here are aware, I still refer to. I make no effort to memorize joseki.
Re: First Joseki and Fuseki books
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:01 pm
by oren
RobertJasiek wrote:Ah, ok, and I thought you would be suggesting only databases:)
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