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#204 Annihilist vs Otenki

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=7710

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Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:36 am
by Annihilist
Uberdude, thanks heaps for your feedback, this is partly why I wanted to play this game.

Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:38 am
by otenki
Annihilist wrote:Uberdude, thanks heaps for your feedback, this is partly why I wanted to play this game.


But I don't get to read it .... :( :D

Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:40 am
by Annihilist
otenki wrote:
Annihilist wrote:Uberdude, thanks heaps for your feedback, this is partly why I wanted to play this game.


But I don't get to read it .... :( :D
Not yet

Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:46 am
by Annihilist
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think I overlooked this response... white's corner looks more or less secure now, and quite large. Not sure if I can invade later but I don't think I will just yet. I've committed, so I'll make the extension. If he shimaris upper left, I might shimari lower right.

Uberdude: it's true I used one extra stone, but it does lend a bit to the center, so it seems okay to me. Then again, I could be dead wrong. Ah well.

Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:03 pm
by Uberdude
@ Annihilist:
Yes, your jump does help the centre, my point was that you said your jump and 3 space extension had "greater efficiency", when I think what you really should say is "greater profit", but then you also paid more, spending an extra move. Efficiency is how much you get given how much you spent, so is your greater profit worth the extra move? I would tend towards saying no, though your result is certainly playable.


@otenki:

What I talked about can't happen now, so I think it's ok for you to read it too.

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:22 pm
by EdLee
Uberdude wrote:I wonder if players stronger than me similarly think my thoughts are strange.
Of course. That goes without saying. Most likely, you've had pro reviews of your games?

Re:

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:48 pm
by Uberdude
EdLee wrote:
Uberdude wrote:I wonder if players stronger than me similarly think my thoughts are strange.
Of course. That goes without saying. Most likely, you've had pro reviews of your games?


Yes, I actually originally typed "bonkers" instead of "strange" but toned it done in case it came across as harsh. It is a question of scale, of course I will think about some wrong things, but I have found I am often on the right track but with errors in judgement (I am aware of the focus of the game and trying to decide between this and that and making the wrong choice) or deep/sharp reading, whereas that sequence Annihilist showed was basically nonsensical. Of course if a pro who can trivially read a 40 moves sequence sees my 10 moves of reading that misses a 6d level tesuji he might call it nonsense. So 'strange' yes, but 'bonkers', I'd like to think not but maybe I am self-deluded.

Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:17 am
by otenki
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So there are 2 big points at the moment.
They are both an aproach on a 3-4 stone. (on the top-left and bottom right)

I can enclose my corner on the top left but this would be too easy going on black.
I'll try to complicate by aproaching and try to return in sente to my enclosure.

Let's see if I succeed.

Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:40 am
by Annihilist
Not sure on my move yet, still thinking.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , f . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . d . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b 0 a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . c . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So I'm not moving yet, but sorting through my thoughts for clarity. Here are the moves I'm considering:

a: Standard joseki, nice, clean, common, gives me the corner. If he makes the extension, I end in sente, which is nice. I can use that to build influence on the top-left and fight him in the middle.
b: I like the idea of splitting him from the stones on the left, so b looks promising, but I'm not sure about the followups, so I'll need to look into that.
c: Same reasoning as b, but I know the followups better. I can let him take the corner while I gain influence towards the side and a (sort-of) wall, allowing me to attack the left while keeping his groups separated. The ogeima is often considered overplay, so a simple keima is ideal.
d/e: Pincer looks interesting, again I'm a little rusty on the followups, so not sure how well this would go. Wouldn't mind a bit of fighting. One space puts more pressure on white's stone, while two space lends a little more to the hoshi stone.
f: Tenuki. This is the move I want. I'm not sure how safe it is to tenuki for this move, though. Nonetheless, I hope to be able to play this way after I deal with the lower right.

I wonder about the keima, then pincer, allow him to take the corner entirely. It's midnight in Aus so I'll sleep on it for now.

Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:21 am
by Uberdude
otenki wrote:I can enclose my corner on the top left but this would be too easy going on black.
I'll try to complicate by aproaching and try to return in sente to my enclosure.

Let's see if I succeed.


Enclose top left is not too easy going, it is a necessary (IMO) defence as black's c13 stone makes an approach to top left (I prefer low) painful for white. B should just tenuki now or else pick a joseki which is hard for white to take sente from.

Black's lower right enclosure is just a big opening move, not related to strength of groups. Top left is urgent enclosure to prevent corner getting weak. If W encloses and B encloses that gives white a good excuse to play k3 which he wanted to anyway from the lower left corner, and now it would combine with removing the extension from black's lower right enclosure he just made. And if black answers enclosure with k3 area move then white approaches lower right.

Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:25 pm
by Annihilist
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , 1 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Two options:

a) Seal his approach stone in, cut it off from stronger groups then attack the left and topsides with the ensuing influence, or:
b) gain territory in sente, and then build influence in the top and fight him in the center.

That's how I read it out.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 1 . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . a . . . . X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . 3 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:b5: is probably questionable, because it leaves the weakness in the corner, but it accomplishes my goal of cutting white's groups off. It also loses sente, because of that weakness, and/or gives white some good aji in the corner. :b7: at a is thinkable too.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . h . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , 7 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 5 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This looks alright for me. I get about a 15 point corner and I get to attack the top. But the large white corner in the bottom left makes it look favourable to white at this stage. It also makes my hoshi look a little lonely, I don't want him to make an approach at h there.

Alternatively, tenuki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , 1 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 5 . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . 3 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Assuming he stays in the lower right, this could work for me. Building influence towards the left in order to attack the left group seems vital, and so does pressuring the top right. I think :b1: acts kind of like a probe here, asking white how much he really wants territory in the corner.

This is all assuming he plays mostly according to joseki. But the way I see it, joseki moves are in this situation the best for white, at least in the problem areas.

Jumping out into the center with my group on the left side is something I should look to do at some point, but it's not urgent.

Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:50 am
by otenki
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11 Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , 1 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



As per usual my fuseki is totaly and utterly screwed.
I cannot reply on the top left so I'll leave my stone as aji.
The reason that I cannot reply is because I cannot let my stones on the left bottom become weaker.
If I would reply on the top left then for sure black can attack my stones on the left while building influence towards the center.
The group at the bottom left may look solid but it has so many problems in its shape.
So my conclusion is I want to create outside influence on the bottom right.
So when he attacks my group when this influence is there I'll just push him towards the influence in sente.

Let's hope I don't make anymore of these stupid mistakes I've been making lots of in this game allready :-)

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:31 am
by EdLee
You guys should fix your diagrams to show the correct move numbers: :b11:, :w12:, :b13:, etc.


Not for players:
otenki wrote:As per usual my fuseki is totaly and utterly screwed.
For beginners. Typical misunderstanding by many beginners.
At these levels, there is no big problem so far, by either side,
and so the game is completely NOT decided here. The big mistakes, if they happen,
will be later, usually in fights, in basic shapes, etc.

Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:37 am
by otenki
I fixed the numbering, sorry I forgot about it.

Cheers,
otenki

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:37 am
by EdLee
Otenki, thanks, but you're still off by 1. :)
otenki wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm10 Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , 1 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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