Goal 1D and some advices for a newbie

[badukJr]

Erm, you don't have to insult everyone who reaches amateur dan level and not asian. I took it quite slow and easy, amateur 1d isn't some stratospheric level.

[SoDesuNe]

[...] amateur 1d isn't some stratospheric level.

Yes, this is true. Shodan is actually still pretty awful ; )
But I think this "wisdom" comes over time. When I started I thought, 1D or even steadily progressing was not hard. And then I didn't make progress for a couple of months, even losing badly to friends I showed the game and who had never played before.
Now I played on and off for almost four years and from my "accumulated experience" I can tell that with the "right" books, the right mind-set and the right tuition from stronger players, 1D is not some mysterious goal. Sure, you need time and dedication but that is to be expected if you want to be good at something.

It is quite possible to achieve 1D in one year as a pupil or student (because then you most likely have enough free-time), if you have some guidance.

Without such guidance, you end up as most players (me included), somewhere in between, with a lot of bad habits and very slow improvement.

[Servasky]

What's Shodan?

[EdLee]

What's Shodan?

In Japanese, sho-dan ( 初段 ) means beginning dan, or 1-dan. Amateur 1-dan is about 6 or 7 stones from professional level.

[Servasky]

Ok thanks

[EdLee]

I think for responding to a person posting on a forum its reasonable.
If we had such a technical argument everytime a go proverb was cited, learning would be unfun.

Perhaps you and I have different ideas of what constitutes "reasonable".
First thing is, we need to know the numbers. (Perhaps more knowledgeable or resource members here can help with the statistics.)

For the sake of argument, let's take a "high" percentage -- say 80% of the general public --
can make amateur 1-dan level in their lifetime (which is much longer than 6 months).
Even if this were true, one should still say "For most people (about 80%), they can make 1-dan level (in their lifetime)."
Because even in this case, 1 in 5 people will never make it.

Now, what if, for the general public, only 50% can make 1-dan level in their lifetime?
In this case, a statement "You can make 1-dan" would be unreasonable.

What if the percentage drops to 10% ? For the general public, to make 1-dan level in their lifetime.
In this case, the statement "You can make 1-dan" would be completely unreasonable.

But, the original claim is much more severe -- in 6 months:

2. 3 months ~ 3 years. If three hours of go study per day, 6 month.

My feeling -- again, I don't have the statistics -- is 90% of adults (30 years or older) of the general public
cannot make amateur 1-dan level in 6 months, with 3 hours of daily Go study.
Therefore, I find the original claim completely unreasonable. In fact, I find it ridiculous.

[Servasky]

I think for responding to a person posting on a forum its reasonable.
If we had such a technical argument everytime a go proverb was cited, learning would be unfun.

Perhaps you and I have different ideas of what constitutes "reasonable".
First thing is, we need to know the numbers. (Perhaps more knowledgeable or resource members here can help with the statistics.)

For the sake of argument, let's take a "high" percentage -- say 80% of the general public --
can make amateur 1-dan level in their lifetime (which is much longer than 6 months).
Even if this were true, one should still say "For most people (about 80%), they can make 1-dan level (in their lifetime)."
Because even in this case, 1 in 5 people will never make it.

Now, what if, for the general public, only 50% can make 1-dan level in their lifetime?
In this case, a statement "You can make 1-dan" would be unreasonable.

What if the percentage drops to 10% ? For the general public, to make 1-dan level in their lifetime.
In this case, the statement "You can make 1-dan" would be completely unreasonable.

But, the original claim is much more severe -- in 6 months:

2. 3 months ~ 3 years. If three hours of go study per day, 6 month.

My feeling -- again, I don't have the statistics -- is 90% of adults (30 years or older) of the general public
cannot make amateur 1-dan level in 6 months, with 3 hours of daily Go study.
Therefore, I find the original claim completely unreasonable. In fact, I find it ridiculous.

This is unnecessary. I just wanted to know if reach 1-Dan is a realistic goal for a normal person. Forget how long will it take, it's impossible to know. It was a stupid question, sorry and thank you everyone

[EdLee]

Servasky, it's not a stupid question. It is a very popular question.
Beginners and other people ask it all the time, on servers like KGS,
or on Go forums like this one. All the time.

Nobody here has any problems with your question.

[zslane]

It is not a stupid question, no. The answer is that like every other intellectual endeavor, progress is not based purely on time spent learning, studying, and practicing, but also on how a person learns and their own intrinsic limitations (which can be varied).

It is perhaps a common misconception that acquiring genuine mastery of some subject merely requires time and study. I don't believe this to be true in general. When I was getting my computer science degree, I studied with a hundred other students all with the same goal: to learn the cariculum, graduate and then become professional software engineers. I would venture to say, however, that based in what I observed, I would not hire 90% of my fellow graduates because even though they studied, some of them very hard, very few of them had any real passion or talent for it. Sure, they could pass the tests and all, but as soon as an unusual programming scenario was put in front of them, they were lost. They graduated, but they were "professional shodan" engineers in name only.

It's like asking: how long will it take to become a great artist? There is no one answer; it is different for everyone, and in most cases the answer is actually "probably never".

[SoDesuNe]

[...] but also on how a person learns[...].

In my experience this is a very determinating factor, when progress is slow despite long hours of study. Two things help in my experience: A good teacher and/or a honest self-reflection, what works for you and what doesn't.

Slightly off-topic but I for instance don't believe in some sort of "intrinsic limitations", assuming a healthy person, when pursuing intellectual or manual endeavors. You might never be in the top 5% of your field but with hard work you will still be far above the average person.

And I think to become an "artist" is a choice that is not up to you but to the general public.

[otenki]

Servasky,

I just wanted to wish you all the best in you go/igo/weiqi/baduk journey.

For me it all started a little bit more than a year ago and I have not yet gotten to EGF 1d Howhever I think I'll get there some day as I've been progressing slow but steady. (I'm about 9-7k EGF (i'm not yet sure what my rank shift will be after the last tournament) which is something like 5k kgs)

I just wanted to give you one piece of advice I wish I would have gotten earlier:

Whenever someone gives you advice about the game of go listen carefully.
Howhever DO NOT under any circumstances (unless he is pro) believe everything they tell you.

I've experienced myself lots of people telling me certain moves were bad. Or that something wasn't joseki.
And yes they were right but by not letting me play these moves I did not really understand why.

In order to get a deep understanding of this "why" in go, you must play bad moves

For example I had one oponent at a tournament who was at least 2 stones stronger than me.
She was all about creating "correct" shapes, playing joseki and certainly not playing agressive.

And guess what, even though she was 2 stones or more stronger she could not win from be because she did not actualy understand moves she made, she just played something because she had read it was right.

Oh and a good server for learning why some basic moves are wrong/right is tygem.
Especialy if you play against chinese/korean players you will learn a lot.

Anyway enough of this preaching about experimenting a lot

Have a great journey, and lets play someday!

Cheers,
Otenki

[Servasky]

Servasky,

I just wanted to wish you all the best in you go/igo/weiqi/baduk journey.

For me it all started a little bit more than a year ago and I have not yet gotten to EGF 1d Howhever I think I'll get there some day as I've been progressing slow but steady. (I'm about 9-7k EGF (i'm not yet sure what my rank shift will be after the last tournament) which is something like 5k kgs)

I just wanted to give you one piece of advice I wish I would have gotten earlier:

Whenever someone gives you advice about the game of go listen carefully.
Howhever DO NOT under any circumstances (unless he is pro) believe everything they tell you.

I've experienced myself lots of people telling me certain moves were bad. Or that something wasn't joseki.
And yes they were right but by not letting me play these moves I did not really understand why.

In order to get a deep understanding of this "why" in go, you must play bad moves

For example I had one oponent at a tournament who was at least 2 stones stronger than me.
She was all about creating "correct" shapes, playing joseki and certainly not playing agressive.

And guess what, even though she was 2 stones or more stronger she could not win from be because she did not actualy understand moves she made, she just played something because she had read it was right.

Oh and a good server for learning why some basic moves are wrong/right is tygem.
Especialy if you play against chinese/korean players you will learn a lot.

Anyway enough of this preaching about experimenting a lot

Have a great journey, and lets play someday!

Cheers,
Otenki

Thanks! I had a similar experience a few days ago. I was playing with a "strong" (everyone is strong for me ^_^) player and he said a bunch of times "that's a bad move" and i always asked "Why?" but he didn't give me clear answers so i thought "WTF?" Hahaha

[SoDesuNe]

You will know the real stronger players because they will always tell you, your moves are "interesting" ; )

But yeah, it is common to declare certain moves as bad among weaker players. I did so, too. Now I always try to find another adjective or word (e.g. inefficient, slow, not urgent, direction etc.), which tries to explain the reason for my reluctance with the move in question. But of course, I can only explain what I myself can understand and - granted - that is always flawed since I am a very weak player. Though I'm working on that and in the meantime please bear with me =D