Life In 19x19

Bill Spight wrote:I recommend, at the DDK level, an average of 10 sec. per move. Then a 19x19 game would take between 30 and 45 min.

Korean 5 dan...asked, "Why do they take so long, when they have nothing to think about?"

Peter, listen to Bill.

EdLee wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:I recommend, at the DDK level, an average of 10 sec. per move. Then a 19x19 game would take between 30 and 45 min.

Korean 5 dan...asked, "Why do they take so long, when they have nothing to think about?"

Peter, listen to Bill.

I agree with Bill's point, but I don't really care for the Korean 5 dan's comment. It sounds a little arrogant to me. Even if you're weak, you have things to think about.

In regard to the OP, I think it's useful to try to get a lot of experience. That's how playing fast will help you. But I think that as long as you feel your thinking time is being productive, it's not harmful, provided your opponent doesn't mind.

Thinking for awhile about a board position, and then seeing the result from it can be very rewarding, regardless of how good it is for your go.

Still, as others have said, it's good to get a lot of experience by playing faster, too. There's a book called "The Art of Learning", where the author says his best moves in chess were ones where he spent a medium amount of time thinking - extra thinking time helped, but after a certain point, additional thinking time was not beneficial.

But I think you have to identify where this line is yourself.

It looks like around 15 seconds per move seems sensible, and also gives a reasonable game time.

My reason for taking longer is that if it takes me that long to recognise something I have been studying, then that is practicing that knowledge, and it should come to me much quicker next time. If you always play too quickly, your game stays at a superficial level ("Am I in atari anywhere? No? OK, randomly extend from one of my stones..."). It's trying to find the right balance.

Bill Spight wrote:I remember when a Korean 5 dan visited our club and, seeing SDKs take 2 hr. on a game, asked, "Why do they take so long, when they have nothing to think about?"

I don't think that's fair, either. I wonder if his English has got more or less fluent since he first started learning it?

PeterPeter wrote:It looks like around 15 seconds per move seems sensible, and also gives a reasonable game time.

Peter, yes, that's OK.

PeterPeter wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:I remember when a Korean 5 dan visited our club and, seeing SDKs take 2 hr. on a game, asked, "Why do they take so long, when they have nothing to think about?"

I don't think that's fair, either. I wonder if his English has got more or less fluent since he first started learning it?

I think there's a little misunderstanding... Baduk beginners in Korea (usually) don't think more than 5 seconds to play a move. They don't know what to think, so they don't think.

[edit] And this is also because most of baduk beginners are unpatient kids.

Kirby wrote:Even if you're weak, you have things to think about.

PeterPeter wrote:I don't think that's fair, either.

I cannot speak for others, so I can only speak from my own experience.
I started toward the end of 2002, so it's been just over 10 years.
And during that time, I have not seen even one exception to this:
at DDK levels (especially 15k or less experienced), if they're thinking "too long" on a move,
they're wasting their time. This is 100% true -- I have not seen one exception in 10 years.
(That includes myself, of course. )

We're not saying don't think. We're also not saying play 3-second blitz.
That 5d also did not mean there's literally nothing to think about --
of course there is, and even beginners should think -- the problem is,
their ideas and reading deviate so quickly off course,
that beyond a certain threshold (of thinking time), it becomes a complete waste of effort.

( I'm the first to admit I'm not fast myself. In fact, the exact opposite.
I'm very slow. My time control is Canadian 1 min. + 20 moves / 30 minutes.
I still manage to find players on IGS and KGS who'd play by this setting.
The US Open is 90 initial minutes per person + byoyomi, I like it very much. I'm slow. )

For example, if there is a life-and-death situation that's difficult for
a DDK player, or, a tricky ladder, then by all means take the
time to think. Bill mentioned an average time. For some moves,
it's OK to play within 1 second (if forced), and for other moves, it's OK to
take a minute or two. But if every move takes over 3 minutes, for example,
for a DDK, that's 99% a waste of time, because most of what they're thinking
is wrong -- this is what the 5d meant (I guess).

This is also another perennial question -- we really should have an FAQ --
(along with "how to study shapes?" "how to improve?" "should i study with a pro?"
"how long does it take to make 1d?" "why am i stuck?", etc. )

I've also found there's no way to convince a beginner (or DDK levels) --
especially adult DDK levels -- to think less, and play faster.
(Another futility: to convince the eager teenage beginner their dream
of making pro will not come true.)

I also cannot prove the non-existence of the proverbial teacup orbiting Jupiter.
But I try anyway.

EdLee wrote:I've also found there's no way to convince a beginner (or DDK levels) --
especially adult DDK levels -- to think less, and play faster.
(Another futility: to convince the eager teenage beginner their dream
of making pro will not come true.)

It's OK Ed, I have been convinced to play faster .

I just need to sort out a big countdown clock, as left to my own devices I know my moves will get slower, and slower.. and slower...... while I gaze at the pretty stones.

PeterPeter wrote:It's OK Ed, I have been convinced to play faster .

PeterPeter wrote:I just need to sort out a big countdown clock...

Actually, that's a pretty good idea, for beginners and more experienced people alike.
Not only is it more fair (for both players) (and forces you to think fast and sharp at the same time),
but it's also good practice for tourneys.

In a live game, taking longer than and average of about 20 seconds is likely to start annoying your opponent. Unless you've agreed in advance to play a really really slow game, such player may be unlikely to want to play you again.

If you're playing a correspondence game (e.g. on a turn-based server), on the other hand, feel free to take as long as you like. If you enjoy the game more by thinking on your moves for 15 minutes, then by al means do so. Enjoyment is, after all, the main goal of playing for us amateurs.

If you care about progressing, I think you'll learn far more from playing 50 games at 15 seconds per move than you will from playing a single game at 15 minutes per move. Go skill is 90% pattern recognition anyway.

HermanHiddema wrote:If you care about progressing, I think you'll learn far more from playing 50 games at 15 seconds per move than you will from playing a single game at 15 minutes per move. Go skill is 90% pattern recognition anyway.

This is all very enlightening.

In chess, which is also based on pattern recognition, blitz games are generally accepted to only be mindless fun, and to improve you must play slow games and really think things through. If a typical game is 40 moves each, a 5-minute blitz game gives you 7.5 seconds per move, and a slow game averages 2 minutes per move, and it is not unheard of to spend 30 minutes on a critical position.

No wonder my games of Go were dragging on for so long ! That is the danger of trying to play the game in a vacuum. Thank you for the clarification.

Interesting topic.

My one piece of advice would be to avoid mindless play.

Folks who are stuck at DDK for several years are almost always guilty of this. They slap down stones the way they have always slapped down stones, and either wonder why they don't get better or are resigned to the fact they won't.

I believe that averaging 15 seconds per move is pretty reasonable, assuming half are 30 seconds and half are quick (you've already read out the continuation or are forced). Be sure to review the game afterwords though to see where your plans matched with reality, and more importantly where they didn't.

For the Korean 5D who wonders what folks are thinking about, he needs to know that he sees patterns instantly, while weaker players think, "If I go here, and he goes there, then I go here..." This is a time consuming, but important process.

For the record, I am a slow player, though I prefer to be labeled thoughtful.

HermanHiddema wrote:In a live game, taking longer than and average of about 20 seconds is likely to start annoying your opponent. Unless you've agreed in advance to play a really really slow game, such player may be unlikely to want to play you again.

If an unknown opponent plays me with just 20 seconds thinking time each move, I would most likely don't play him again because he obviously does not treat the game seriously. A live game is not your everyday disposable KGS game.

It's okay when both agree on a time limit but by default games in my Go club do not have time limits. We even leave games unfinished.

SoDesuNe wrote:If an unknown opponent plays me with just 20 seconds thinking time each move, I would most likely don't play him again because he obviously does not treat the game seriously. A live game is not your everyday disposable KGS game.

At an average of 20 seconds per move, a game takes about 90 minutes to completion (45 minutes each). You would consider that "not taking the game serious"?

Everyone is different, but the bottom line is life is short. Regardless of how strong you are and the arrogance of Korean 5 dans, if you are seriously thinking about this, then you are serious about improving. Of course, there is a whole other lecture about books and studying life and death and you need to be doing that, but you need to play and that is the focus of your question.

You need to play different people, and hopefully some folks a little/ a lot stronger than you to improve. While they should be happy to bring someone with your good attitude along - they will not want to spend their whole evening doing it. So play pretty fast. When I play weaker players at club they will often apologize for their slowness. I will be blunt, either responding "Yeah, you need to play faster" or "Well, this is a really complicated situation, so taking some time here is prudent" Don't waste the stronger player's time - resign when you are behind and then ask for a couple of points where he/she thinks you went wrong. You are much more likely to get a brief lesson if you resign in a timely fashion or at least do not labor over a hopeless endgame for an hour.

In general - play quick games - not blitz - but games of an hour or less, I guess between half hour to an hour.

Once in a while though, at least one game a week if you are playing alot - slow down and play a serious game with someone close to your rank. Review that game with a stronger player if you can. I think a balance of quick (NOT BLITZ) play for experience, and a couple of serious games every once in a while is best.