Life In 19x19

I'm not sure about your 7, but I agree about the other direction being better.

Also, with regards to , I wonder if it was better to play the hoshi as she did, or if going diagonal opening was still viable:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Cap- B: 0 W: 0
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This or 'a', for instance.

I think it's still playable, if you like diagonal openings.

Phelan wrote:Also, with regards to , I wonder if it was better to play the hoshi as she did, or if going diagonal opening was still viable:

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$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . 4 , 3 . . |
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$$ -----------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ -----------------------------------------
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$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Phelan, of course it's no problem -- no better or worse -- it's just mood, entirely up to W.
If W approaches with , then B is happy to take the last empty corner (say, with ), if he wants.

OK so change of plans... xD I played above because it just seemed better then:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . 0 , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
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$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . 5 . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My original desire was to extend from the Shimari as above, maybe I'll still have a chance.

Although...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Cap- B: 0 W: 0
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$$ | . . 0 , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
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$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . x x x x x . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . x x x x x . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

10 possible points is better than

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Cap- B: 0 W: 0
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$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | x x 9 , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
$$ | x x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | x x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | x x X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
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$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

8 Possible points

But then again having the Sanrensei for white looks worse.

Maybe this too isn't the right way to think about the situation

This is what I considered:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Cap- B: 0 W: 0
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . i h . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . g . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . e f . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

First I thought: I don't want to allow black b. White 2 would be kinda lonely in black's moyo. None of the other points look like I need them that badly.

That could turn out like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
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$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
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$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This double approach is painful for me. I can't pincer because of all the strong black positions around, living in the corner would be giving black too much thickness, running away isn't something I'm looking forward to.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Cap- B: 0 W: 0
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . O . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 4 . . . 7 . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't like this much... even if I tenuki and play 6 at black 7, black still seems to be ahead both in territory and thickness.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . 9 , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The idea of 10 is to extend on the right side in sente, then go back to the left side also in sente to finally play in the lower side. And build influence in the process. I usually approach a 4-4 stone with a keima. Here I prefer the high approach because I already have two stones on the right side and this looks harder to invade and cut for black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Obviously this would be safer but I want to put more pressure on black because I need sente.

The sad thing is, I don't know any joseki about the high approach on hoshi. I suppose something like that is playable?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 5 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black is taking lots of territory, playing on the fourth line... maybe that's too much to allow? But I build influence in sente and get in the way of a big black moyo. Is that trade good enough for me?

Well, let's see what he plays.

This move seemed prudent. Again I really wanted to play the extension from the lower right corner. But I felt I had to respond to move. Then again:

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[go]$$c Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . y y y y y y y y y y |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . y y y y y y y y y y |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . 1 . y y y y |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X y y y |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X x x |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . X . x x x |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . x x x x x x x x x x |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . x x x x x x x x x x |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

y= 27 possible points vrs. x= 25 possible points. So maybe this is the right move? Am I even looking at this properly?
Are both grps just to loose to count them like I'm doing?

The top right corner is not your points yet, though it's certainly more black than white at the moment. Also the m17 area is not your points yet: if white plays m17, are you sure you can you kill it? (not that white m17 is a good move). It's hard to say how many points you have here, probably you will get at least one of the corner or the side area so I would just say it is 10+ points. The lower right corner is a 3-4 5-3 shimari so that is your points (unless you choose to give them to white in exchange for something else), if you play k3 that doesn't make all that side area your solid points, just your potential points. This is not to say your last move was bad, it was the right area of the board (I prefer o16 instead to make better 4th and 3rd line balance with k17) as it is important to stop your q16 stone getting approached on both sides. It is an example of urgent moves (help q16) before big moves (and it is also a big move!). It is good to think about which moves give you the most potential to make territory as that is, after all, how you win at the end, but it is a mistake to think of those marked areas as solid territory at this stage of the game.

Isn't the above post entering into interference with the game? I skimmed it, so might have gotten the wrong idea about it, but it seems to have advice that can be used still in the future game.

If I'd been him, I'd have played that last move on the fourth line. Later, if I get the chance:

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[go]$$Bcm11 Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But that's gote so I don't want to play that yet. His position looks safer tham mine but I think I can tenuki for now.

I wondered for a while which move to make:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11 Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I decided that the three point extension was OK as all other black stones are far away at the moment. Also it puts more pressure on black. Later I will have to strenghten my positions though. It's hard to really decide what is too thin and what is too slow. But I guess I'll find out soon enough

I wanted to make life with the stone on the left there. I know this is the move to do so. Perhaps I could have extended one more space.

For Spine, after the game:

Spine wrote:

$$Bcm11 Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11 Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I wanted to make life with the stone on the left there. I know this is the move to do so. Perhaps I could have extended one more space.

The normal 3 space extension is subject to attack here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11 The 3 space extension on the 3rd line can be attacked.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If you extend to the 4th line, however, I think it can work. Not sure if it's better than just extending two spaces and being done with it, though.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11 The 3 space extension on the 4rd line is more resilient
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]