Life In 19x19

SoDesuNe wrote: attacks your pincer stone ( ) and extends from the lower right corner stone at the same time. This is a very good dual-purpose-move for Black and is one possible and natural continuation. Now the question is: How do you handle ?
Personally I don't like this variation without reading further. My feeling is, is too good here and - which actually should attack himself - becomes a vulnurable target.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 4 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I guess would be reasonable for white, after which black has a decision to make. Keep going at 'a', or invade at 'b'?

A question: why did you play there, rather than at the star point?

PeterPeter wrote:

$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . e . 4 . O . c . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . d . . 6 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . e . 4 . O . c . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . d . . 6 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I guess would be reasonable for white, after which black has a decision to make. Keep going at 'a', or invade at 'b'?

is very good, following the same reasons Black did when jumping out at - keeping the opponent seperated.

I took the liberty to add 'c' to your diagramme because that's also a choice Black has. Generally Black would like to jump out again at 'a' still seperating White and aiming above and below at e.g. 'd' and 'e'. 'b' would most likely hurt the two stones ( and ) because by descending down, White would cut them off and trading his top to unite his forces.

PeterPeter wrote:A question: why did you play there, rather than at the star point?

I like to play a little bit further away because then White's option of - again - a counter-pincer has less impact on Black. By jumping out with White initial pincer stone becomes stronger and the proverb tells us to keep away from strength ; )

Bill Spight wrote:First, let me say that this is a great discussion. I like everybody's posts.

PeterPeter always asks great questions.

@SoDesuNe

If I remember correctly, the right move is actually p10, the elephant's jump. The situation may be different from what I remember, but at a glance it looks better than the jump to me.

Shaddy wrote:@SoDesuNe

If I remember correctly, the right move is actually p10, the elephant's jump. The situation may be different from what I remember, but at a glance it looks better than the jump to me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is a Joseki, that is correct (although 'a' is just as correct), but I don't know (didn't read) if you can apply that in this situation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 4 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 6 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I would be reluctant to play it since gazes grimly at this weak formation : o

A very important point about jumping out when pincered, that I've not seen mentioned here, is that after white responds to help the corner stone, you must have a good move to play next. In the case of the one space low pincer, this is the shoulder hit press previously mentioned, as it presses white low and, very importantly, has a fairly decent connection back to the jump stone. I only say fairly decent as there is a cut at a which can get complicated (there are ladders involved and in fact this cut can be a strong move), but at least we can see that and are reasonably close together here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc One space low pincer jump and press - ok
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 4 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But now what happens if white plays the two space low pincer? Jump out now is not a joseki move and is likely bad, as after white helps the corner black has no good move: the same idea of shoulder hit press is too far away and weakly connected to the jump stone so is easily separated.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Two space low pincer jump and press - bad
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 4 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 2 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Same thing happens with three space low pincer. This is a general principle of looser pincers: they put less pressure on the approach stone as they are further away, but also by being further away they are less susceptible to counter attacks after the approach stone jumps out.

To add to the confusion (or not if you think about it carefully in terms of "after I jump out and he answer do I have a good move?), if white plays the two space high pincer, then jump out becomes a joseki move again because we can slide underneath it to make a base, which we can't with a 3rd line stone (N.B. to preempt the pedants these days this is often considered old joseki and good for white as black is low, also in terms of whole board thinking I don't really like this much for black).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Two space high pincer jump and press - ok
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 4 . O . 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 7 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Uberdude wrote:A very important point about jumping out when pincered, that I've not seen mentioned here, is that after white responds to help the corner stone, you must have a good move to play next.

This relates to the point that pushing through a small gap is generally stronger than pushing through a wider gap.

But now what happens if white plays the two space low pincer? Jump out now is not a joseki move and is likely bad, as after white helps the corner black has no good move: the same idea of shoulder hit press is too far away and weakly connected to the jump stone so is easily separated.

$$Bc Two space low pincer jump and press - bad
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 4 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 2 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Two space low pincer jump and press - bad
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 4 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 2 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Indeed, the jump is not joseki and the above diagram is pretty bad for Black.

However:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Jump and cap
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . 7 . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 4 . O . . . |
$$ . . 8 . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 5 . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

is the natural follow-up to . Now if White responds with, say, , Black can approach with . This kind of sequence does appear in pro games, depending on the rest of the board.

From the end of this joseki, how practical would it be for white to say, "I don't like your outward-facing wall, I am going to build my own one here to neutralise it."

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 1 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . 6 5 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . ? . . 4 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . 0 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

PeterPeter wrote:From the end of this joseki, how practical would it be for white to say,
"I don't like your outward-facing wall, I am going to build my own one here to neutralise it."

( My emphasis on joseki. ) Maybe we can rephrase as follows:
(1) W does not like this result; and (2) W wants to do something about it.
To me, (1) seems unreasonable, because when W pincered with , W knew this is a possible result.
(I'm assuming both B and W knew this standard sequence beforehand.)
If W does not like this result, then W should not have played (and and ) to begin with.

(3) So W must be OK with this result before deciding on (and and ).
Given (3), now it's more reasonable to modify (2) to:
(4) W has to keep an eye on the center, and to keep the balance so that B does not get too much because of it.
Which brings us to:
(5) How W goes about (4) -- the strategy and tactics -- this is further discussion. Maybe this is your real question.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 1 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Peter,

EdLee wrote:Maybe we can rephrase as follows:
(1) W does not like this result; and (2) W wants to do something about it.
To me, (1) seems unreasonable, because when W pincered with , W knew this is a possible result.

I think (1) is fair. Out of every joseki, you get features that you like, and features that you don't like. You win the game by effectively dealing with the features that you don't like.

EdLee wrote:In this Malkovich game, started on May 15 last year, and still going (very slowly),
after my I have had to live with the consequences (for almost a year now! )
and I had similar problems and questions as (4) and (5) above.

Interesting. Most of these Malkovich games are beyond me, but here, I wonder if the single black stone on tengen worked too well with his wall, and if you had played on tengen first, it might have gone better?

PeterPeter wrote:I think (1) is fair. Out of every joseki, you get features that you like, and features that you don't like.
You win the game by effectively dealing with the features that you don't like.

Just so we're clear:

If you are playing W,
(a) You think the result is equal for B and W (locally, anyway), but you still don't like B's wall.
(b) You think the result is better for B than W, (at least partially) because of B's wall, so you don't like it.

Your position is (a), and not (b) ?

PeterPeter wrote:...and if you had played on tengen first, it might have gone better?

It was impossible for me to have taken tengen first after .

EdLee wrote:Just so we're clear:

If you are playing W,
(a) You think the result is equal for B and W (locally, anyway), but you still don't like B's wall.
(b) You think the result is not equal; you think B's wall makes it a better result for B than W, and that's (partially) why you don't like the result.

Your position is (a), and not (b) ?

Yes: (a). I like my territory, but I don't like Black's wall. If I can find a way to neutralise that wall, I win .

EdLee wrote:It was impossible for me to have taken tengen first after .

Fair point. In another game...

PeterPeter wrote:If I can find a way to neutralise that wall, I win .

Not true. ( Because you may have to pay a price for that --
whatever costs you to deal with that wall is part of the value of that wall.
That was the deal: you agreed to take cash while B got what he got.
Thus the suggestion if W didn't like this result, W should've picked another variation to begin with.)
But I'll let other, wiser folks reply to your (a).

It is not that I dislike the result overall. I think it is well balanced. The fact that it is regularly played by stronger players confirms this.

Now, I know what I got from it: safe territory. That means black must have got something good from it: an outward-facing wall. If that particular feature of it is good for black, then it stands to reason that I don't like that particular feature.

It is also true that I don't understand much about black's result. It looks like he is poised to take a large area in the centre, which I know I will have to address at some point.

At my level, I can ask a question like, "Can white build a wall right in front of black's?" and there is a good chance that someone will reply with "No no no! You must approach it more gradually, from tengen" (or the opposite; who knows?). Even if there is no consensus on the exact best way to do that, at least I can avoid a strategic blunder that would make an SDK cringe.

EdLee wrote:(Why do I guess you don't understand B's result? Because I don't understand B's result. )

Does anyone understand B's result?

PeterPeter wrote:Now, I know what I got from it: safe territory. That means black must have got something good from it: an outward-facing wall. If that particular feature of it is good for black, then it stands to reason that I don't like that particular feature.

I think one of the interesting features of this joseki is that white didn't necessarily get much safe territory and black didn't necessarily get that great a wall. As in one of my earlier posts, black can still take the corner and can play forcing moves against the side group, but also white can wedge in to play a big cut in the wall that could lead to several other results!

It is also true that I don't understand much about black's result. It looks like he is poised to take a large area in the centre, which I know I will have to address at some point.

This sounds like the classic misunderstanding of thickness. It's not there to take territory in the centre, although it might. The standard demonstration basically applies here; you need far more stones to secure territory in the centre compared to the side, so if that's your sole consideration you simply can't win that way.

The correct way to think about it and to play is that thickness give you power to play powerfully elsewhere. Your wall limits white's invasions on the bottom, as they might be attacked strongly if forced out towards it. It also helps your own invasions on the top, if white manages a small moyo or whatever then your wall helps via all the ladders and via making you powerful in the centre so that white cannot attack your invasion strongly without risking you cutting and attacking him instead.

At my level, I can ask a question like, "Can white build a wall right in front of black's?" and there is a good chance that someone will reply with "No no no! You must approach it more gradually, from tengen" (or the opposite; who knows?). Even if there is no consensus on the exact best way to do that, at least I can avoid a strategic blunder that would make an SDK cringe.

Playing around tengen might be an okay sort of move if white has some strength of his own and so it borders two moyos. Or if black has a very big moyo, it might be a play on the moyo border point and so a big play for reduction.

But in general, the 'build a counter wall' idea is too simplified. A more general idea might be that you have to avoid the wall dominating somehow, but that might mean a range of actual goals, and (as in the discussion in this thread) what actually becomes reasonable will depend on what both players do.

All the way on the other side of the board you might choose to give up territory later in return for thickness that reduces the power of the wall and increases your chances of successfully invading deeply. Or you might judge that you can still grab more territory and give black more thickness, because you think you can still live in the moyo and make the walls inefficient. Even such completely opposite results like these might be possible, hinging on the choices both players make later, so don't lock yourself into thinking there is one true way to play against thickness.

There are a lot of things that might be reasonable, but I guess the big thing I'd advise based on this post is don't get completely worked up about the wall. The board's still pretty empty, there are big moves on the opposite side available. You shouldn't forget about it, it will affect what else you consider reasonable, but you don't have to suddenly veer your game plan directly to 'build another wall opposite it'.