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6k in need of outside input

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=8036

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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:42 am
by EdLee

Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:02 am
by EdLee

Re: 6k in need of outside input

Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:37 pm
by mitsun
Comments on first new game:

You played an excellent opening and early middle game -- nothing really to criticize in the first thirty or so moves. Very nice.

(Ed -- :b17: is joseki and fine for B. In fact, W sometimes answers at F15 rather than E14 to avoid a pushing contest. This is a very big point for W also if B plays elsewhere, so it is worth a full move in the opening.)

I would answer :w30: at Q7, just to take more territory. Note that if W draws back to Q9, B can extend to P7, and W cannot cut. Giving W two forcing moves here seems slightly submissive.

:w34: is an interesting invasion. At first glance, it looked like an overplay to me, since B has so many forcing moves above, but I cannot see a convincing way to punish it, so maybe it is good. B play through move 39 is nice. Pushing once more on top at H15 should also be sente for B.

:b41: looks like a good attack, but :b43: is not consistent and looks awful. After the first move, B is pretty much committed to hane at G10 and fight it out. Other alternatives for :b41: are E10 or F10, but these also lead to complicated fights. If you see no convincing attack, you could play elsewhere and see how the situation develops. Switch to the Q9 fight for example. W will have to be careful in this fight not to give B enough strength to come back and kill the D10 stone.

:b49: is an unnecessary defensive move in the middle of a game-deciding battle. If W cuts at E14, B would be happy to give up three stones, taking forcing moves which help a lot in the center fight. Instead of this move, I think I would simply cut at D11 for a large profit. W might fill the ko, but his group would still be subject to attack, and I think B would have a comfortable lead.

B play through move 63 was again very good. This seems like a good place to pause and count the score. Most of the board is settled, so it should be possible to get a reasonably accurate count. I suggest that as a useful exercise as part of your review. If you find that B is comfortably ahead, then it would be prudent to keep the endgame simple.

The invasion :b65: looks hopeless and might be the worst move of the game. In the sequence through move 102, B managed to get away with it, but did not really gain anything for all that effort. And I think with good play, W probably could have killed the invasion, so B was risking a lot. How about simply playing O15 or O16 instead? Let W have some points on top, but take an equal number of points along the right side. Push once at H15 first. W really does not get very many points on top and would actually end up over-concentrated.

:b103: is an interesting invasion and may actually work, but I question its necessity. Again, I would count the score first, before embarking on something this complicated. But the continuation to 112 was very good for B, so I cannot really criticize the invasion itself. You played well here.

:b113: is trying much too hard. Compared to cutting at D11, B attempts to gain maybe 5 points, but risks losing over 20 points (if W wins the ko after playing D11). Not a good risk-reward scenario. I think I would call this the losing move.

B made a few mistakes during and after the ko fight. Of course, looking at the outcome, it would be better to ignore :w140: than :w146:. After the disaster up to :w150:, B continued with a few bad knee-jerk responses. On review, I am sure you can see that the exchange 151-152 is horrible for B, and the next few moves also just help W. Even at this late stage, if B played to give up those stones on as small a scale as possible, say with forcing moves around J6, the result might be close.

All in all, this was a pretty good game for B. You played many really nice moves, did a good job of reading out most of the fights, and lost just because of a few lapses in judgment. When the game reaches a pause in the fighting, or a strategy decision point of some sort, I really recommend taking a few minutes to estimate the score, in order to help guide your strategy.

Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:42 pm
by EdLee
mitsun, thanks!

Re: 6k in need of outside input

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:44 am
by papabob
Thank you both for your comments. I've played well recently against 5kyus, and hope to continue.

It will be interesting when I reach the rank (1-3d?) where games aren't decided by mistakes. It's hard to imagine playing a game where the outcome is decided by good/better/best moves, not good/bad moves. I often think that playing go is like playing an instrument. It takes years of practice to play even the most basic piece without mistakes. And then it changes into something entirely different.

I've included move-by-move responses to your reviews below. Thanks again.

EdLee
First Game
48: I agree with the take. Not sure why I didn't consider it.
117: Great point; I really don't. Moved it instinctively. Not good.
137: Still improving detecting, playing, and timing ko threats. Have a lot of work to do.
148: I hadn't seen the 153 move variation you included. Thanks.

Second Game
11: Your 12 was much better than mine; took a couple seconds trying to decide how to respond, and R6 was stronger and simpler.
13: Black's Q6 move is too strong; thanks for playing that out.

Mitsun
First Game
Thanks for the support on the opening decisions. I have the overly simplistic notion that if you play a strong opening, the rest of the game will follow. I wonder if that notion will shift overtime from the opening, to the middlegame, to the endgame as my opponents get stronger.
17: I appreciate the explanation on this joseki. I played it knowing it was joseki, but didn't fully understand why.
30: Q7 is much stronger; this move was instinctive, not a good sign.
34: I thought 34 was necessary but was certain I'd gain from my response. I couldn't see why H15 would be sente for black…
43: Awful, agreed. Not sure what I was thinking. 43 at G10, and I'd be in a phenomenal place.
49: Good point. Sacrificing those three stones is an easy decision.
63: While I still believe 5:00+5x30 games are fantastic for growth, they don't give much time to count, which has created a bad habit. I'm working on improving my quick estimation of who's ahead, but if it's anything within 15 points, I usually can't tell. Definitely something I need to work on.
65: White should have easily killed this stone. I have a bad habit of "hating my opponent's territory," as Guo Juan 5p puts it, and invading when I don't need to. I still wasn't sure who was ahead, and even if I was set on invading, the top is much more solid than the bottom left. Regardless, I should've developed with O15 instead of invading altogether.
103: Another example of an unnecessary invasion.
113: I completely agree. I tend to make the game overly complicated and risky when I'm leading, or even if the game is close, and starting a ko battle here was insane.

Thanks for your general comments at the bottom. It was helpful to hear that I played a couple strong moves. I'll work on my counting so I can count quicker and, more importantly, think to count in middle game to guide whether I play safely or invade.

Re: 6k in need of outside input

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:59 am
by Dusk Eagle
papabob wrote:It will be interesting when I reach the rank (1-3d?) where games aren't decided by mistakes.

Trust me, you've got to get stronger than that for games to not be decided by very basic mistakes (basic relative to the level of the players).

Re: 6k in need of outside input

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:32 am
by Shaddy
I have occasional games (tournament ones) which are not decided by basic mistakes. They are extremely stressful.

Re: 6k in need of outside input

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:45 am
by papabob
Just as I start feeling pretty good about myself, I run into a couple brick walls. It's healthy. USGO.org quoted Korean pro Moonyong Choi as saying, "I myself have played more than 20,000 games and lost half of them." It's as much about losing as it is winning. If not more so. Your reviews have been immensely helpful in turning those loses into something meaningful. Something important.

I've attached two games I lost this past week. Variations are from my own review.

Thanks again for your support.



Re: 6k in need of outside input

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:11 am
by Magicwand
game 1 comment
18: you should feel very uncomfortable to play such move. we call it willingly headbuttin brick wall. usually not good shape.
50: what are you protecting? back door is open. you should build middle influence.
52 ~~~ : i am sure you dont see anything solid by this sequence of move... patience is a virtue.

edit:
game 2:
145: you dont need to save everything... i think this is losing move

Re: 6k in need of outside input

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:13 pm
by mitsun
Comments on game 1:

As MW noted, :w18: is bad shape. There is a Go proverb "hane at the head of two stones", which is good shape. This proverb should have a corollary "do not headbutt into your opponents hane". A better alternative is to simply connect at D8. B still has to defend, so W gets sente to take the important extension around K4. (Note that even around move 100, this bad shape is still haunting W -- B has the aji of a cut at D8 which enables a ladder at G6.)

Later in the game :w136: is the same bad shape. In this case, W could probably switch to R17 and steal part of the corner, using the aji of S15.

:w36: would be better at D13, cleanly cutting off the upper B stones. W would still have miai of capturing the C13 stone or blocking at C18, so the corner would be safe. In the game, B got a good result by connecting underneath the W stones.

Another Go proverb is "kikashi before living". More generally, when you have to answer your opponent submissively, look for any worthwhile forcing moves which you can play before the required response. A prime example of this is the peep at :b87: Clearly W has to answer by connecting. But first W has a nice forcing move at N9, which temporarily defends against the cut. After B connects around P8, W still has to answer submissively at Q10, but the previous exchange strengthens the W center considerably, and with this timing it comes for free.

Pretend the position after :b129: is in a tesuji problem book. I am sure you can find the killing move for W.

Re: 6k in need of outside input

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:56 pm
by mitsun
Comments on second game:

The opening sequence in the upper right corner was great for B. Did you try to read out the ending position as a life and death problem? If B reduces W eye space with a hane at S18, can W live? If W can live, would any nearby moves strengthen B enough to permit a kill?

The sequence :b39: through :b51: was excellent, making full use of B strength here. This could be a textbook example of how to attack an invasion. However, in the continuation, I think B should have placed more emphasis on maintaining strength rather than attacking directly.

:b53: is a little unsatisfying, as it lets W run out in good shape, without doing much to strengthen the B group or threaten the W corner. Is there some way B can lean on the W corner first in order to build up strength? How about the sequence E2-D2-E4? It seems unlikely that W can afford to start a ko here. If W connects, B can play F6, which is much better than F5 for both defense and attack. As the attack progresses, B is likely to be able to block at C6, keeping this group strong.

:b59: through :w62: is the wrong direction, weakening the left group. It would be better to block at C6, then extend to make a base if W defends the corner. This is quite large territorially, and it would keep B ahead of W in center strength, assuring future profit from the attack on the weak W running group.

:b67: is much too submissive. Extending to H9 would make good shape. If W takes the ko, B can add a defensive move around M10 to protect the cut. The W ko capture does not make an eye, so W would not be accomplishing anything. (Note that if B had peeped at E8, it would be different. Then :w66: might be a good kikashi, forcing B to connect, before coming back to answer the peep.)

:b71: and :b73: might be necessary defensive moves, but first B should atari at H10. This kikashi is sente now, forcing W to make the awkward connection at G9, but later on (after B defends at L7) W might not need to connect. Timing is important.

:b83: through :b87: are very bad locally, forcing W to split the two B groups and pushing W in a direction which hurts the large group to the left. (http://senseis.xmp.net/?SqueezingOutTheToothpaste). Unless this builds enough strength to kill the W group to the right with a move around N12 (actually quite possible, but I don't think that was the plan), this sequence helps W more than B.

Re: 6k in need of outside input

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:52 am
by papabob
Thanks for your great comments on my last two games. I made 4k last Friday, and won my first even game this morning. Guo Juan has helped tremendously with the fundamentals, and I believe that's what has been carrying me.

I've provided specific responses to your comments below. Thanks again for your support.

Magicwand
Game 1:
18: Thanks to your comment, I've noticed I have a tendency to "willingly head butt brick walls". I'm not sure where I picked up that habit, but I'm working on changing it.
50: I was hoping someone would comment on this move. I was trying to attack those two black stones, but those can easily live, and I squeezed those stones into my middle influence, which was my last hope for the game.
52: I agree. It didn't help much at all!

Game 2:
145: This comment really got me thinking; I was leading, and could have easily sacrificed a piece of this group in order to save the rest and take the game. I played someone at the Arlington Go Center a while back who compared it to a lizard dropping its tail when attacked.

Mitsun
Game 1:
18: Thanks for reinforcing this. D8 is sente and just better shape. Not sure where I picked up this habit, but I'm working against it.
136: As you can see, it's a bad habit. The aji of S15 gave me some interesting variations to play with, thanks for mentioning. Didn't even see it.
36: D13 is arguably the only move locally, and I remember reading this out and thinking there was some way he could cut and not moving there. I was wrong.
Kikashi before living: I don't have a strong grasp of this concept. I'd heard of it before, but your comment made me look it up again, and realized I still don't fully get it. Not that I don't get it, but that I have troubles looking for it/using it in a game. The example helped tremendously though. Before making a submissive move, look for a sente move (often locally) that strengthens your position.
129: Nobi at H19 instead of hane at J19 would kill. Thank you for highlighting. Completely missed it.

Game 2:
Opening: It's funny you say that, because generally I'd prefer white's position here. It may be a factor of strength; I've seen dan players make tremendous use of thick walls, but I'm still learning how to play them.
Upper right corner: I tried reading it out in the game and thought white was alive.
39-51: Thanks for confirming that attacking that white stone was the best way to take advantage of that thickness. I was hoping someone would comment on this sequence; as you can see from my variations, I wondered if I extended too far attacking the white stone, instead of a smaller low extension.
53: Great suggestion; these are sequences I would never think to play. He does get out with great shape, and I played around for a while in my review trying to find a different way to attack.
59-62: I completely agree. The black group on the left is extremely weak, and at 64 white could've cut those three stones off and lived, which I believe we both missed.
67: I played a move differently last week thanks to your comment here, doing what you suggested. No reason to fill that in at all. H9 should've been automatic.
71-73: Great move, and another example of a "kikashi before living" that I just don't think of automatically. Need to spend more time letting this sink in.
83-87: Looked up "Squeezing Out the Toothpaste" and "Small Gaps" after this comment, and they were very helpful. If something's going to escape, give it room. Or in another application of I believe the same type of concept, don't attach when attacking. No need to jump on its back.

Re: 6k in need of outside input

Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:54 pm
by papabob
I've played well against 4kyus, but collected a loss this morning. Today's loss followed Guo Juan's teacher's tongue-in-cheek advice: "Lose a few stones, and you're ahead. Lose a big group, and you've won the game." I focused on killing a medium sized group, he focused on attacking my then multiple weak groups, and outplayed me the rest of the game.

I'm keeping up my initial 2013 study schedule -- one Guo Juan lecture, one game, one self-review, 5 days a week -- and it's going well. I'll keep that up until it doesn't.

I've posted two losses at 4k below. Any thoughts or advice would be much appreciated. Variations are from my own review.

Thanks again for your help.



Re: 6k in need of outside input

Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:27 pm
by Buri
Greetings,
I am a much lower level player than you (11kyuu) so I can't comment on your games as such. I was intrigued by your remark that you were watching five or six
Guo Juan lectures a week. I have been a student of Guo for some time and my one year membership of her school expired last week. For those who don't know, the one year membership is fairly cheap and allow access to hundreds of superb lectures on all aspects of the game by Guo and various other pros. Of them Guo is probably the best teacher - teaching is her 'Jones' as it weren. During my time as a member I wa slide a kid in a sweet shop, working through different courses on a huge variety of subjects and I don' regret it one bit. It was magical for me. However, with reflection I decided it was not the best method of using this school and now I work differently. Now I think carefully and consult Guo about what lectures suit me best. Then I pay a one month rental fee and study it in depthl. What I mean by this is I copy a the branches of the examples onto sgf files and write Guuos comments with them. I review them constantly and play the variations from memory on a real
board. I feel this study is having a much more profound effect on me at this stage.
Best wishes,
Buri

Re: 6k in need of outside input

Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:31 am
by mitsun
The latest two files are not visible, at least in my browser. Some download problem?
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