Komi pie: will it ever become widely used?

[skydyr]

I'm becoming more and more of the opinion that for club play, or any situation where you expect to play someone repeatedly, rather than playing around with komi, it's better to use a kadoban system, where there is no komi but the handicap changes every time someone gets some number of wins ahead.

[SmoothOper]

I'm becoming more and more of the opinion that for club play, or any situation where you expect to play someone repeatedly, rather than playing around with komi, it's better to use a kadoban system, where there is no komi but the handicap changes every time someone gets some number of wins ahead.

I don't care for the kadoban system. It only works if you play frequently with the same people and only infrequently with other people, and it skews the game towards hoshi-handicap style play. I play mostly even games online, so it isn't unlikely for me to show up and be a stone stronger and to be better at playing without handicaps.

[jts]

That wasn't the thread about the pie rule. We started arguing about it in this thread:

http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=5481

Then we moved into a thread called, "The pie rule":

viewtopic.php?f=45&t=5501

[oren]

"Komi pie: will it ever become widely used?"

It will probably not be widely used. It seems to be a solution in search of a problem.

[bgrieco]

I agree with oren.

Komi was calculated statiscally from game results with players of same strength. It is usefull for tournaments and rated games.
Apart from that, you either give your oponent a handicap or a reverse komi, which is something both must agree on and the purpose is solely to make an interesting game.

[Kirby]

...
If I don't know you at all, and I bid a komi of 5, what happens? Of course, you decline - you would normally give someone like me 10 komi. I think I've got a fair result, but you're taking the colour you prefer and giving 5 points less compensation than you normally do. You're essentially at a 5-point advantage.
...

I don't see any problem with this, because both players have the choice to participate in the bidding. If the "correct" komi against me is 10 points, the opponent has the opportunity to bid 10 points in the first place.

This is more fair than the current system.

Suppose we have the same example - let's say I have a 10 point advantage with black. Then whenever I play against someone at 7.5 komi, I'm automatically at an "advantage" and the opponent has no chance to change that. At least with the bidding system, the opponent can affect the bid.

[Kirby]

I think a blind auction would make more sense. Each player places how many stones on the board that they would like to play, which ever player places the smallest, gets white. ....

Great idea. In a non-blind auction, one player is giving the other information by placing a bid. In a blind auction, this is fixed.

[Kirby]

I agree with oren.

Komi was calculated statiscally from game results with players of same strength. ..

I agree this probably won't come to be widely used. But I don't think the stats argument really works that well. That's because the statistically calculated komi is a single number calculated from a group of professional players.

There exists the possibility that the "most fair" komi for two amateur 5k, for example, is a different number. At least with the komi pie, these two players could try to find this "fair" komi.

[SmoothOper]

I think a blind auction would make more sense. Each player places how many stones on the board that they would like to play, which ever player places the smallest, gets white. ....

Great idea. In a non-blind auction, one player is giving the other information by placing a bid. In a blind auction, this is fixed.

Blind auction could be really easy to implement online too. Just setting the komi, and letting the server pick before starting the game. In ties, the players could resort to guessing even or odd stones then alternate black white, or essentially pick randomly.

It would be interesting but things get tricky with different ranks, which IGS for example has a fairly accurate ranking system, which includes negative komi for a weaker player and stronger player of the same rank, though I have never liked that, since the games aren't as good but the ranking boost is large, which didn't seem fair negative komi and a large ratings boost.

[billywoods]

If the "correct" komi against me is 10 points, the opponent has the opportunity to bid 10 points in the first place.

The opportunity, yes, but not the knowledge. In a club or something, sure, but there are plenty of inventive and fun handicaps you can use with people you've played a hundred times before. The point is, in a tournament, when playing against people you've never played against before, it's not obviously any fairer than fixed komi is just because there's some choice involved - you're making choices based on insufficient knowledge.

[Kirby]

If the "correct" komi against me is 10 points, the opponent has the opportunity to bid 10 points in the first place.

The opportunity, yes, but not the knowledge. In a club or something, sure, but there are plenty of inventive and fun handicaps you can use with people you've played a hundred times before. The point is, in a tournament, when playing against people you've never played against before, it's not obviously any fairer than fixed komi is just because there's some choice involved - you're making choices based on insufficient knowledge.

1. Knowledge of what a good komi is for you is part of your strength.
2. You can always bid 6.5 or 7.5 komi if you have no idea about what's correct.

So I still feel that this method is at least as good as fixed komi, and more flexible (so a little bit better).

[hyperpape]

1. Knowledge of what a good komi is for you is part of your strength.

Yes, but it's a smaller part of your strength than the ability to accurately count (up to fractions) the value of various endgame plays. And we'd laugh if someone suggested that before the game we complete endgame quizzes and award points for the answer.

I think komi pie doesn't seem ridiculous on its face, but would actually be worse than an endgame quiz. It's pointless at best, a horrible distraction at worst.

[Kirby]

... It's pointless at best, a horrible distraction at worst.

Why do you think it's pointless? I don't think it's pointless.

[billywoods]

1. Knowledge of what a good komi is for you is part of your strength.

Huh? As I said, the correct komi for a game between me and you depends on what a good komi is for me and what a good komi is for you. The game is, after all, between the two of us. Making a choice on what the best komi is based on insufficient information (aka guessing) doesn't seem particularly more useful or fairer than having it fixed.

[hyperpape]

Kirby, do you think we should have endgame quizzes before the game starts, and award points to the winner?