Life In 19x19

daal wrote:Ambiguity aside, the point seems to be that setting goals is easier than achieving them. There was a discussion a while back about whether it was better or not to publicly announce one's goals [...]

Yes, there have been at least a couple of studies that I know of regarding this phenomenon.

Daniel Coyle. The Little Book of Talent (Kindle Locations 932-938). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. wrote:In a 2009 experiment at New York University, 163 subjects were given a difficult work project and forty-five minutes to spend on it. Half the subjects were told to announce their goals, while half were told to keep quiet. The subjects who announced their goals quit after only an average of thirty-three minutes, and reported feeling satisfied with their work. Those who kept their mouths shut, however, worked the entire forty-five minutes, and remained strongly motivated. (In fact, when the experiment ended, they wanted to keep working.)

Telling others about your big goals makes them less likely to happen, because it creates an unconscious payoff—tricking our brains into thinking we’ve already accomplished the goal. Keeping our big goals to ourselves is one of the smartest goals we can set.

I'm a bit saddened that there is now some down-talking on study journals, even saying they are ridiculous. I mean, what's the point?
Sure they are alway the bunch of people who need to vent on the internet and feel big by talking down on others but aside from that where is the harm in study journals? I don't have anything against a constructive opinion, like overall experience says that this or that will be hard to accomplish. But why it seems easier to point out the negative sides than cheer up a bit yourself and just which good luck (or offer actual advice)?
Study journals are no contracts, they are simple threads with goals and maybe dreams, written down to get psyched up (and maybe psych others up, too). Who cares about certain scientific studies in this context? Go is a hobby not our livelyhood, we don't have to succeed, we can drop it anytime we want.

So, don't forget to dream and dream big! =)

Calling the behavior of claiming publicly that You will practice 1-2 hours a day and become a pro/9 dan/champion in short time ridiculous is "constructive criticism". I don't think there is anything rude in calling such blatantly wrong claim ridiculous, if anything I would be more offended that some people think so little is required to achieve what they "claim", which means little respect to the people who actually achieved these "landmarks".

Anyway, let's not continue this part of the topic, as I stated previously I have no interest in people stopping their "ridiculous" storytelling, and won't be convinced that calling things accurately can be regarded as inappropriate

SoDesuNe wrote:I'm a bit saddened that there is now some down-talking on study journals, even saying they are ridiculous. I mean, what's the point?

Yeah, but if people all around you keep saying: "I'll make 1D in a year!" or similar and you get the feeling this is a normal and achievable goal, how do you feel when you set this very goal for yourself, and after a year you aren't even barely there? That you're too stupid to achieve that very common goal?

From this list I don't think anyone who sets himself a goal is being ridiculous. I do feel like perhaps looking closely at what other people have achieved can help new members to make more reasonable goals, that they can feel good about afterwards by actually reaching them. If you discuss it theoretically, without looking at actual achievment, then what you discuss has not much to do with reality. At the moment what you hear when someone asks "I wanna be 1D in a year" is: "It's a very common goal", "It's been done before", "It's possible if you work hard". It would be useful to know how many out of 100 people who had this goal really did make it? And from those who made it and those who did not, how hard did they work?

I find this reality check a good idea. I don't think anyone should feel ashamed in this list, but maybe we should all reconsider our personal goals based on the results exposed there, rather than on our wish to become strong in no time A good goal is a reachable goal.

I want to hear what Ed thinks.

Amelia wrote:

SoDesuNe wrote:I'm a bit saddened that there is now some down-talking on study journals, even saying they are ridiculous. I mean, what's the point?

Yeah, but if people all around you keep saying: "I'll make 1D in a year!" or similar and you get the feeling this is a normal and achievable goal, how do you feel when you set this very goal for yourself, and after a year you aren't even barely there? That you're too stupid to achieve that very common goal?

From this list I don't think anyone who sets himself a goal is being ridiculous. I do feel like perhaps looking closely at what other people have achieved can help new members to make more reasonable goals, that they can feel good about afterwards by actually reaching them. If you discuss it theoretically, without looking at actual achievment, then what you discuss has not much to do with reality. At the moment what you hear when someone asks "I wanna be 1D in a year" is: "It's a very common goal", "It's been done before", "It's possible if you work hard". It would be useful to know how many out of 100 people who had this goal really did make it? And from those who made it and those who did not, how hard did they work?

I find this reality check a good idea. I don't think anyone should feel ashamed in this list, but maybe we should all reconsider our personal goals based on the results exposed there, rather than on our wish to become strong in no time :-) A good goal is a reachable goal.

1-dan is in my opinion a normal and achievable goal but I would never say it doesn't requiere effort.
Personally, I love to read study journals, how player think about their game, their progress and how they want to tackle their goal. It helps me reflect on my own game and on my own methods. And everytime I read a fully energetic post I'm all "Yay, let's do it!" It's fun. There is by the way no one stopping dan-players from telling about their own roads to improvement, I'm very much interested in them.
Again, Go is my slighty more than appropriate leisure time reducing activity aka my hobby. Why do I have to be all reasonable and serious about it? A good goal (in a hobby) does not have to be reasonable for me. It has to motivate to start walking. If I miss it? Who cares? There are no downsides and I've certainly learnt a lot on the way. Basing my goals in a hobby on some quantified data sure feels like I need to justify everything to the guys from the controlling department =D Except... in Go there is none. I don't have to justify anything. I can dream big and when I fail, I still can dream even bigger because the only person who is affected by it is me. And I don't care as long as it's fun : )

It is only through setting myself large, unachievable goals and screaming them from the rooftops that I have ever got anywhere in life. I wouldn't be where I am today without all of the absurd goals I've set myself - each and every one of which I've failed to attain, by the way - because, in trying desperately to attain the unattainable, I've progressed far more so than I ever would have done if I'd set myself cushy, easy goals.

(And isn't this exactly what Hikaru no Go is about? Sai clawing at the kami no itte? Hikaru desperately clambering towards Touya, and Touya pushing back? The Meijin, who bears an embarrassing loss, but uses it as a springboard to climb even higher? Or even Tsubaki, who shows us it's always worthwhile - and never too late - to try? The whole show is about an average kid with average abilities who puts unfathomable quantities of time and effort into something he comes to love. I think that's a fantastic message to give to kids and adults alike.)

billywoods wrote:(And isn't this exactly what Hikaru no Go is about? Sai clawing at the kami no itte? Hikaru desperately clambering towards Touya, and Touya pushing back? The Meijin, who bears an embarrassing loss, but uses it as a springboard to climb even higher? Or even Tsubaki, who shows us it's always worthwhile - and never too late - to try? The whole show is about an average kid with average abilities who puts unfathomable quantities of time and effort into something he comes to love. I think that's a fantastic message to give to kids and adults alike.)

Yes, it is, and Hikaru no go doesn't make a secret of the difficulties that arise from such fantastic goals. Tsubaki resigns from his current job to take an exam he will fail. A number of insei quit with a rather sad prospective future due to their sacrified education. Matsuba became a pro but in the end, despite this outstanding success at the exam, he is a low level pro frustrated by his own performance.

As long as you have SoDesuNe's attitude you can do nothing wrong with setting too high goals. But some people try hard, fail and then give up entirely. You can burn out even at free-time stuff when you take it too seriously, I've seen it. I think that's sad, because you can enjoy something without being absolutely brilliant at it. It's not so much about what people think about me, than about what I think of myself, I guess? If I consistently fail at the goals I set for myself, it makes me angry at my bad performance.

Amelia wrote:If I consistently fail at the goals I set for myself, it makes me angry at my bad performance.

That's fine too. Of course, constantly failing at goals is a very discouraging process for some people. Different people work in different ways. I'm just saying that, in my book, setting a goal and only getting 30% or 50% or 70% of the way there is not "failing", compared to being too scared to start. This seems to be SoDesuNe's attitude too.

In any case, I'm sure we're all agreed that naming (and shaming) those who fail at their goals (whether or not that was Ed's intention - I'm not sure) is not at all the same thing as naming (and shaming) those who have failed to progress, and setting overly ambitious goals is not always bad.

Amelia wrote:Tsubaki resigns from his current job to take an exam he will fail.

Yes, and when he turns up at the exam he's visibly stressed about passing or failing - and he fails. And does he regret it? Not as far as I can see. His attitude changes throughout - he realises that he was never going to pass, and betting everything on passing was a stupid thing to do, but he's glad he gave it one last shot.

Amelia wrote:A number of insei quit with a rather sad prospective future due to their sacrified education. Matsuba became a pro but in the end, despite this outstanding success at the exam, he is a low level pro frustrated by his own performance.

Here, I agree - of course, my previous post shouldn't be read as meaning "throw away everything you have on a gamble". I hear lots of people shirking challenges like learning a foreign language, learning to climb a mountain, learning to play chess, and so on - my post is in that kind of context.

Seems like we should ask redundant for his secrets.

hyperpape wrote:I want to hear what Ed thinks.

Perhaps, but the topic itself (ambiguity and all) has generated a lively discussion. I sort of want to see where it goes without Ed clearing things up for us.

What I mean is, I don't want to judge the appropriateness of this list without knowing what Ed thought he was saying.

hyperpape wrote:What I mean is, I don't want to judge the appropriateness of this list without knowing what Ed thought he was saying.

True, I agree.

EdLee wrote:Nikolas73. Jun 30, 2010. From KGS 6k to 1d in 6 months (by 2011). ( Apr 5, 2013: KGS 6k )

This thread made me smile

It would have been even better if you had wrote this in late March when my KGS rank suddenly dropped from 3k to 12k - I guess that's what happens when you don't play any serious games for ~8 months.

For the first few months that I worked on the goal, I was quite impressed with how quickly I improved. IIRC I gained 2 stones in 2 or 3 months, and was "on track" as far as I was concerned. Then life got in the way, as it does, and I didn't have time to stick to my study schedule anymore. By the end of the year I reached 3k KGS and played as a weak 2k in my local club. In early 2011 another major event happened and since then I've had pretty much no time for Go at all, aside from lurking on L19 occasionally.

Although I didn't reach 1d, gaining 3 or 4 stones in about six months is not bad... an accomplishment I probably would not have put in the effort for if I hadn't been aiming at something higher. It's true that some of us can underestimate the effort involved in making such a rapid improvement (or perhaps in my case, underestimating the amount of time one can reasonably dedicate to Go). Nonetheless I agree with SoDesuNe, Billywoods, and others that there is nothing wrong with setting high goals especially when compared to doing nothing. The trick seems to be finding satisfaction in your own improvement rather than worrying about hitting the magic number in time. Setting a goal, giving yourself a reason to actively study and improve, is just the spark for the fire.

Or perhaps I am just making excuses
Thanks EdLee for making this. Funny how three years can seem to go by so quickly...

Discussions appart, I think this thread is just bad taste.
I'm not following it any longer.
I suggest people who want to discuss the "achievability" of goals in life to crate a new topic.