Life In 19x19

Bill Spight wrote:

Phoenix wrote:Steps that have worked for me:

{snip}

3) Play a few games while ignoring a part of your Go knowledge.

This is counter-intuitive. I don't suggest applying these steps on your main account (if you play online) if you're worried about your rank. The idea here is simple: try new things. But you can't really play differently if you keep following the same old map. If you simply erase an area, you get excited about exploring, and you have the space necessary to do so.

As an example, I was stuck around 7k-8k for a while, until I read that the understanding of thickness is vital to Go progress. So I thought 'okay', and played my next games while completely ignoring the need for territory. I took the influence result of played joseki, played slow, thick moves to build up power, etc. Jumped to 4k practically overnight.

Excellent!

I once advised a 1 kyu who had been stuck there for some time, and who always invaded, never reduced, to take a month and only play reductions, never invasions. (I don't think he took my advice, though.)

On a related note:
During my hitting-the-wall-episodes I usually just stopped playing Go and started playing Chess. This must be like the ultimate "forget what you know and play something different" metod. But surprisingly - it seemed to work. I invariably returned back to Go, but I felt refreshed, like there was more room in my head for new ideas. And I invariably made an upward jump in rank shortly thereafter.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." -Einstein

If you aren't improving or your stuck in the same spot it's cause your playing the same way.

Try thinking longer about each move.
Or shorter for each move.

Try blitzing.
Try Long OGS games.

Try switching servers.
Try caring less about each move.

Try playing more tightly
Try playing moves you know are wrong if you can't read out exactly why they are wrong.

If you find that you lean towards invading try reducing.
If you find that you lean towards reducing try invading.

Try cross fuseki, chinese fuseki, 5-4, 3-3, 5-3

Try something different. Get new ideas.

If you hit a wall, you probably need to have some analysis done on your games. I'd imagine that you don't have any clear idea of what you're doing wrong anymore.

A stronger player can identify a few areas were you are making mistakes. If you then apply yourself to (re)learn the relevant theory, there is a chance you can break the barrier.

Would people agree that we all have a final wall in something like go where improvement decreases to a very slow pace or stops altogether? What I'm curious about is whether people think everyone has the potential to reach shodan or whether it's the case that eternal kyus are a given in go even if people fulfil their potential (obviously many people will reach some kyu level and just not want to put the time in or whatever to go further because they're content where they are or don't care any more about improvement etc).

Boidhre wrote:Would people agree that we all have a final wall in something like go where improvement decreases to a very slow pace or stops altogether? What I'm curious about is whether people think everyone has the potential to reach shodan or whether it's the case that eternal kyus are a given in go even if people fulfil their potential (obviously many people will reach some kyu level and just not want to put the time in or whatever to go further because they're content where they are or don't care any more about improvement etc).

For anyone to come anywhere close to reaching their potential requires an extrordinary amount of work, so it seems to me to be a bit of a moot point. I think talent makes a difference, but it's much less of a factor than how hard someone works and whether they have the proper guidance, and is only really worth considering for those that have a particularly rare amount of it (one way or the other).

Boidhre wrote:Would people agree that we all have a final wall in something like go where improvement decreases to a very slow pace or stops altogether? What I'm curious about is whether people think everyone has the potential to reach shodan or whether it's the case that eternal kyus are a given in go even if people fulfil their potential (obviously many people will reach some kyu level and just not want to put the time in or whatever to go further because they're content where they are or don't care any more about improvement etc).

I think there is no upper limit to Go skill. However, it is true that people can develop bad habits that are very very hard to get rid of. In addition, not understanding a fundamental concept will hold you back. If you can discover what you are misunderstanding/have not learned and address it you will improve. This will of course get harder to do as your mistakes become finer. e.g. necessary forcing move or aji keshi? This could create a final wall phenomena where the bad habits are so ingrained, or the mistakes are so hard to assess, that improving is near impossible. But in theory it is still doable, it just needs an insane amount of work.

I don't think you can really talk about being stuck at a wall unless you are doing 100 tsuemgo a day and are still not improving.

Uberdude wrote:I don't think you can really talk about being stuck at a wall unless you are doing 100 tsuemgo a day and are still not improving.

Sure you can.
If you improve rapidly from 7k to 2k, lets say, and then stop improving at all, you probably need a conceptual jump.
Solving hundreds of tsumego might help, but I seriously doubt it.

Bantari wrote:If you improve rapidly from 7k to 2k, lets say, and then stop improving at all, you probably need a conceptual jump.

True, but then I wouldn't call that "stuck". I read "stuck" as implying you are working to get over the wall and failing. I sure miss those days as a kyu player where I could improve several stones by just learning a new idea and playing a few games without expending much effort, but when that stops happening I don't call that stuck, but the end of the honeymoon period and the start of needing to work hard to improve (and the level at which this happens varies for different people).

I don't think it is just a matter of needing a misunderstanding cleared up. At certain points you need repetition. It's one thing to know to play away from thickness, and another to know how far away to play from it, and how to handle all the varying degrees of thickness. It's one thing to know that patting-the-racoons-belly is a tesuji, and another to spot that you can create that situation 4 (then 5, then 6...) moves out.

I've played people with clearly tons of experience who were held back by poor understanding of the concepts of Go, and I've also played with people who have the right idea with all there moves but who can't seem to read far enough to back any of it up.

Uberdude wrote:

Bantari wrote:If you improve rapidly from 7k to 2k, lets say, and then stop improving at all, you probably need a conceptual jump.

True, but then I wouldn't call that "stuck". I read "stuck" as implying you are working to get over the wall and failing. I sure miss those days as a kyu player where I could improve several stones by just learning a new idea and playing a few games without expending much effort, but when that stops happening I don't call that stuck, but the end of the honeymoon period and the start of needing to work hard to improve (and the level at which this happens varies for different people).

Well, might be a matter of definition then.

In my experience, pattern is like that: You advance, advance, advance... then you stop. You keep doing what you have been doing, but nothing. Like hitting the wall, thus the name. Then you do something, usually one small eye-opener (new idea, short vacation, epiphany) - and you advance advance advance again. Until you hit another wall.

I think what you are talking about is reaching this specific skill level at which you need to start working differently or more than before, or you will not improve. Usually it does not manifest itself as a sudden wall but more like gradual slowing down to a stop. Most of us never probably reach this leve, or if we do - this becomes our ultimate limit. Personally, I would not call that a wall, its more like 'reaching your max speed at given gear, now you need to switch gears'. But again - its just definition.

Bantari wrote:

Uberdude wrote:

Bantari wrote:If you improve rapidly from 7k to 2k, lets say, and then stop improving at all, you probably need a conceptual jump.

True, but then I wouldn't call that "stuck". I read "stuck" as implying you are working to get over the wall and failing. I sure miss those days as a kyu player where I could improve several stones by just learning a new idea and playing a few games without expending much effort, but when that stops happening I don't call that stuck, but the end of the honeymoon period and the start of needing to work hard to improve (and the level at which this happens varies for different people).

Well, might be a matter of definition then.

In my experience, pattern is like that: You advance, advance, advance... then you stop. You keep doing what you have been doing, but nothing. Like hitting the wall, thus the name. Then you do something, usually one small eye-opener (new idea, short vacation, epiphany) - and you advance advance advance again. Until you hit another wall.

I think what you are talking about is reaching this specific skill level at which you need to start working differently or more than before, or you will not improve. Usually it does not manifest itself as a sudden wall but more like gradual slowing down to a stop. Most of us never probably reach this leve, or if we do - this becomes our ultimate limit. Personally, I would not call that a wall, its more like 'reaching your max speed at given gear, now you need to switch gears'. But again - its just definition.

I guess I am reflecting my own experience too . I don't recall ever feeling I got stuck. There were only brief blips in the rise of my KGS rank graph from 30k to 1d over the first year or so I played, and since then I have only gone from 2d to weak 4d over 6 years or so. But I don't feel I am stuck as I am not working hard to improve by doing all the tsumego I know I need to do if I want to get stronger.

Uberdude wrote:I guess I am reflecting my own experience too . I don't recall ever feeling I got stuck. There were only brief blips in the rise of my KGS rank graph from 30k to 1d over the first year or so I played, and since then I have only gone from 2d to weak 4d over 6 years or so. But I don't feel I am stuck as I am not working hard to improve by doing all the tsumego I know I need to do if I want to get stronger.

The 'short blips' might have been that 'walls' people are talking about, but you either had less problems overcoming them, or did not care enough to make as much fuss about it as many people do. Or both. In either case - good for you.

PS>
Interacting with kyu players, or even teaching - or even informal help - helps to understand what people are talking about here, if you are interested.

After a year and a half of regular play as a 3 dan, I felt like I had hit a wall. Then an insight into myself (not go) let me make 4 dan in 6 weeks.

Then I went into training (15 hrs. of study per week plus one or two play sessions) for two years. Result: 5 dan.

Then I stopped training.

Bill Spight wrote:After a year and a half of regular play as a 3 dan, I felt like I had hit a wall. Then an insight into myself (not go) let me make 4 dan in 6 weeks.

Then I went into training (15 hrs. of study per week plus one or two play sessions) for two years. Result: 5 dan.

Then I stopped training.

Lol... my pattern was different, since we are comparing:

Took about 9 months of 'just play around' to reach 5k, then stopped playing for a few years, but read some books.
Then when I got back to it, I was 1k suddenly... progressed to 2d by 'just playing around' then stopped for a few years, but read some books.
Then when I got back to it, I was 4d suddenly... some little study (3h weekly or so) and lots of serious playing (5 games per week or so) got me to 5d...
Then I stopped the study...
Then I stopped the serious play.

And so here we are, talking about kyu problems on L19 like we're experts.