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Splatted wrote:
Perhaps the marked black stone is a good example? It's close to the white wall but an attack seems unlikely to be profitable. Neither player has the potential for much immediate profit in the area so it's a low priority.
PeterPeter wrote:How about these for guidelines?
If the enemy stone is very close to your wall, and weak (no base potential), you do not attack it as it is likely to get swallowed up during the course of the game and is therefore irrelevant.
If the enemy stone is distant to your wall (say, over 10 spaces away), and not already at risk, you do not attack it as it is likely to end up as dame, and thus be of little value.
If the enemy stone has potential to make a base in front of your wall, you attack it as long as doing so develops a useful moyo for you.
Thickness can easily play on the other side because it is strong. 
Thickness is still under no imediate threat and white has a clearly weak group
Thickness is a little nervous but still in better shape then the lone 4-4 stone. It is normal to pincer this stone. Now it's strange to follow with 
because you allow your corner to be surrounded.Unusedname wrote:
Phoenix wrote:Using these things properly is something that you acquire as you try it out, and perhaps study games of pros or strong amateurs.
quantumf wrote:Unusedname wrote:
I'd like to elaborate on this example. White has played 3 moves in this area, because he needed to limit the possibility of this wall turning into a large territorial framework. However, because black is so strong, white has to play quite a few moves to ensure that he has a viable shape. If the white stones get any points at all,they will be negligible. Black need not immediately or directly attack these stones, and can instead cash in on the 'investment' of the wall by playing big points elsewhere. Of course, he can attack the stones. It's up to him. So an additional benefit of the thickness/influence is more options. Or, put another way, although you may be behind in points, you're more likely to be control of the tempo and nature of the game.
Thunkd wrote:I still don't get this. So after the initial white stone played close to black's wall, black tenukis and white establishes a base. Black can get another free move somewhere else as well. Admittedly white won't get many points here, but so much of blacks potential in the area has been destroyed. And perhaps this is offset by his free moves elsewhere... but a simple pincer after white's initial move lets black easily harry the white stone while developing the right side. If white jumps you can follow for a move or two. Then you can tenuki and take a big move elsewhere. You still let white live, white is still not making territory (even less actually) and you get one fewer free move somewhere else, but I don't see a single move that can create as much potential as the bottom right that you were able to build up. Is this really a good example of where to tenuki a white invasion?
Is this really a good example of where to tenuki a white invasion?
skydyr wrote:Bear in mind that to make the entire bottom territory, black would have had to spend several moves there as well, and white would still be able to reduce.
Polama wrote:The consensus is that black ought to just pincer in the example given earlier of where you might use a wall to tenuki. So who has some ideas of how to modify the position slightly such that tenuki is worth considering?
Here's one thought to start things rolling:
White escapes from a pincer easily, so the position doesn't feel urgent to me any more. If black didn't have a wall, he might have to play locally to keep white from playing on the left and sealing him in.
skydyr wrote:Um... Black is still missing two stones on the board?