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How do you study go books?

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=8480

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Re: How do you study go books?

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:45 am
by Dusk Eagle
foeZ wrote:Well the main reason I'm going through this book right now is because as black I open up like this as black:
(note that I used some other standard opening for white that I commonly use and they're all 3-4 openings)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After this opening, white usually approaches at a,b,c,d or e with a being the most common.
Understanding (not knowing, there's a big difference) all the 3-4 approach joseki would put me at a significant advantage against my opponent because I can choose a joseki to play which will give me a result that's AT LEAST equal if not better for me. And if my opponent makes a mistake, it only makes us go into the game with a significant advantage for me.

And since I already have a reasonably okay understanding of attack and defense, I should be able to get a pretty good lead mid game, or at least not fall too far behind.

Does that make sense?

For the context of full-board fuseki, you might find it equally if not more useful to get a pro game database (GoGoD is very good, but there are free ones out there as well), install Kombilo, and search for the position there.

In fact, you can even hack eidogo to do a full board search, by clicking-and-dragging a region that touches two of the corners and almost touches the other two, as seen in this screenshot.

Image

Re: How do you study go books?

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:03 am
by TIM82
Twitchy Go wrote:@TIM82
That seems like a good idea. How do you decide what parts to read? Especially since the joseki dictionary I've seen are organized around coordinates(3-3,3-4,3-5 etc.) Say the 21st century dictionary of basic joseki(2 volumes). If you read cover to cover in order. You would only have key junctures for 3-4 points for a quite some time.


Which parts to read? Those that I fancy, this is supposed to be a fun hobby :)

Seriously, I pick some situation that comes up in games every now and then, and where I am fed up with the usually very limited amount of options I already know well. Then I browse the relevant section in a dictionary, paying attention to following moves which seem like I would not consider them naturally during a game, and check what kinds of results they lead to.

Re: How do you study go books?

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:05 am
by foeZ
I used kombilo for a while, but the biggest problem that I have with that is that I don't understand the moves and/or joseki choices because there are no explanations. With this book they explain why a certain move is played when the result might seem "ok" for amateurs but in fact favors one player. They explain WHY it favors this player.

Re: How do you study go books?

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:25 am
by Boidhre
foeZ wrote:I used kombilo for a while, but the biggest problem that I have with that is that I don't understand the moves and/or joseki choices because there are no explanations. With this book they explain why a certain move is played when the result might seem "ok" for amateurs but in fact favors one player. They explain WHY it favors this player.


Guo Yuan's Online Lesson Videos are quite interesting for fuseki/joseki choices, she goes through a fair number of variations usually and discusses them. Some of the pro game commentaries might also be interesting to you, I don't know. They're an option if you want something different, and often more modern than the books we get here in the West.

http://internetgoschool.com/audio.vhtml?tab=browse

Re: How do you study go books?

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:27 am
by billywoods
foeZ wrote:But I've been busy studying it for little over an hour now, and I've gotten to page 5 out of 260+ :oops:

You're not seriously telling me you were expecting to master an entire book in a day? ;) Textbooks and reference books are not like reading fiction. You may spend days on a single page. Don't do so if you can help it, of course - but if you have to, don't worry about it.

Re: How do you study go books?

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:22 am
by foeZ
billywoods wrote:
foeZ wrote:But I've been busy studying it for little over an hour now, and I've gotten to page 5 out of 260+ :oops:

You're not seriously telling me you were expecting to master an entire book in a day? ;) Textbooks and reference books are not like reading fiction. You may spend days on a single page. Don't do so if you can help it, of course - but if you have to, don't worry about it.


No no, but I was expecting to get further than 5 pages in a day xD

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:04 pm
by EdLee
foeZ wrote:No no, but I was expecting to get further than 5 pages in a day xD
Ishida and Takao are a culmination and distillation of hundreds of years of knowledge.
Certain moves and sequences have been studied and analyzed over hundreds of years;
others, in less time. And these are not even the really difficult variations --
they are merely the "basic" ones, thus the titles of the dictionaries.
Many sequences -- life-and-death, tesujis, etc. -- that are "obvious" to pros are omitted.
When the book says "Black collapses" or "This does not work for White," the reader often has to verify for herself.
Ishida and Takao are only a tip of the tip of the iceberg.
Just a whiff.

Spending one day on 5 pages is one level of understanding.
Spending one week on 5 pages is another.
One month on 5 pages, yet another.

Or lack thereof. :)

Re: How do you study go books?

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:13 pm
by Twitchy Go
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c An easy joseki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O a . O . B . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Just to give you some context on how long other people might take. I spent about an hour going over blacks follow ups if white ignores the marked stone. The options being 'a' and 'b'.

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:45 pm
by EdLee
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . O . B . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
In some cases, if W tenuki again after :b1:, then B also has (c).

Re:

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:42 pm
by Twitchy Go
EdLee wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O a . O . B . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 W . c . b . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
In some cases, if W tenuki again after :b1:, then B also has (c).

True, I was talking specifically about the variations covered in 21st century dictionary of basic joseki.(I did not clarify that though)
In addition the variations stemming from :black: a or b either leave :b1: available or cut off the marked white stone for greater profit.
You've inspired me to look into a position though
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B best move?
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . O . B . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

It seems that with the exchange of the two marked stones a might now be the vital point of the position. I'll look at it later though.

Re: How do you study go books?

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:01 pm
by TheBigH
[15k-ignorance]
Looks to me that if black plays a, white will want to defend against c. Then, depending on what the upper left looks like, a severe pincer of the :wc: stone might be fun for black. Alternatively, black can make a base on the right with the :bc: stone.
[/15k-ignorance]

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:11 pm
by EdLee
Twitchy Go wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B best move?
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . e W d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . b . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . O . B . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
This probably depends on global considerations. If it's good for B to get out, then B can get out;
otherwise, :black:(a) could be the best move. It depends on the whole board.
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