Life In 19x19

vpopovic wrote:Tough one again. Sorry for leaving review, connection broke and I couldn't load it again.

That's alright. I think we covered most of the major points. The only other big things were the death of the center group and that exchange on the bottom, but we both read those a lot so I think we both understand what happened there pretty well. Other than that it was yose. Hope you were able to get some tips out of the review that you can use in our next game.

Here's our game for reference.

Hmm, could I get some thoughts on ? It looks a bit slow to me and I'm wondering if I'm wrong. I'd have played C14 there I think and not have been bothered by an approach to the top right if it came.

Boidhre wrote:Hmm, could I get some thoughts on ? It looks a bit slow to me and I'm wondering if I'm wrong. I'd have played C14 there I think and not have been bothered by an approach to the top right if it came.

Black's previous move at P12 is probably a little questionable, I think it's building a bad shape near the corner that makes white's 3-3 a little annoying - the two stones are so near that black will be overconcentrated either way he blocks.

I agree that the top left is the biggest area. Actually, in this shape professionals usually play there straight away (C15 and D15 are both popular) instead of answering white's wedge on the side, though doing so is surely playable.

As for b11 itself, I guess the question is whether it turns the entire top right corner into territory. If it does, it's probably not too bad and might somewhat mitigate black's previous overconcentration. However, I think it probably doesn't, there's still a lot of room for white to live in the corner or reduce strongly, particularly if he gets any more nearby stones.

Edit: Here's a professional game with the same shape, though it arises in arguably better style through a more forcing exchange. Black eventually just lets white live in the corner, but in a way that I think would certainly be overconcentrated in the game under discussion.

Boidhre wrote:Hmm, could I get some thoughts on ? It looks a bit slow to me and I'm wondering if I'm wrong. I'd have played C14 there I think and not have been bothered by an approach to the top right if it came.

All of the marked moves look good to me. Of course they lead to different games, but if any of them are significantly better than the others, the difference is beyond my pay grade.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Good moves for B
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

mitsun wrote:

Boidhre wrote:Hmm, could I get some thoughts on ? It looks a bit slow to me and I'm wondering if I'm wrong. I'd have played C14 there I think and not have been bothered by an approach to the top right if it came.

All of the marked moves look good to me. Of course they lead to different games, but if any of them are significantly better than the others, the difference is beyond my pay grade.

$$ Good moves for B?
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Good moves for B?
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

( in the game) looks significantly worse to me than the others. Black is overcrowded in the top right corner. It is a single purpose move, and does not gain much by comparison with regular moves in the opening. (Note the lack of a White stone at .)

Bill Spight wrote:

mitsun wrote:

Boidhre wrote:Hmm, could I get some thoughts on ? It looks a bit slow to me and I'm wondering if I'm wrong. I'd have played C14 there I think and not have been bothered by an approach to the top right if it came.

All of the marked moves look good to me. Of course they lead to different games, but if any of them are significantly better than the others, the difference is beyond my pay grade.

$$ Good moves for B?
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . C . . . # . . . . . |
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$$ | . . B B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Good moves for B?
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

( in the game) looks significantly worse to me than the others. Black is overcrowded in the top right corner. It is a single purpose move, and does not gain much by comparison with regular moves in the opening. (Note the lack of a White stone at .)

I have to agree with this. Black's group is more than strong enough already, and it's way too early to play moves that are purely focused on points.

skydyr wrote:I have to agree with this. Black's group is more than strong enough already, and it's way too early to play moves that are purely focused on points.

In my review with Vladimir, I also felt this move was too slow. However, looking at it again, it sort of makes sense when you consider the possibility of an early 3-3 invasion.

From the position black obviously wants to make his corner big, and he has the potential to do so, but playing too far away from the corner just begs white to invade on the 3-3 (even this early). This could happen very soon after.

The largest side on the board is the right. So, traditional play dictates that the next move should be there. Let's say black approaches the 3-4 instead on move 11 and a joseki plays out, but white ends with sente so he can invade.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$m11 Possible variation from approaching the top left corner
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$$ | . 7 3 O 6 . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If black blocks so the wall is facing the right, his two stones are way too close and wasting the potential of the post-invasion wall (which is required for the sequence to be joseki. Black must block the other way. However, if black blocks so the wall is facing the top then after this kind of sequence white can approach the wall, giving white an ideal extension from his corner group and a good move to reduce black's potential.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$m27 A Great Wall?
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$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O 2 . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . 4 . . . 3 . X O . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is the way black would have to block, but what are all his stones doing? Enclosing that small area in the center? His corner is ruined and white isn't looking that sad on the top. The marked black stone looks especially sad now when it was once proudly attacking the white group on the right it instead feels unneeded.

The move may seem slow, but if it preserves that giant corner (and threatens to make it even bigger) black shouldn't be too upset.

I think that analysis supports my own conclusion that actually black's one space jump is the bad move, and for the same reasons.

I don't think that makes the knight's move good though, because it still leaves a lot of aji if not outright life in the corner - this shape has even appeared in several pro games, and white actually does 3-3 successfully several times even after the knight's move. Black could play closer to the corner, but then that's becoming increasingly inefficient.

amnal wrote:I think that analysis supports my own conclusion that actually black's one space jump is the bad move, and for the same reasons.

I don't think that makes the knight's move good though, because it still leaves a lot of aji if not outright life in the corner - this shape has even appeared in several pro games, and white actually does 3-3 successfully several times even after the knight's move. Black could play closer to the corner, but then that's becoming increasingly inefficient.

Honestly, I think that perhaps black should have approached R10 from the bottom if he were going to approach at all. Black is trying to make a strong moyo/proto-territory on the top right, but the bottom is more suited to it because of the existing enclosure.

skydyr wrote:

amnal wrote:I think that analysis supports my own conclusion that actually black's one space jump is the bad move, and for the same reasons.

I don't think that makes the knight's move good though, because it still leaves a lot of aji if not outright life in the corner - this shape has even appeared in several pro games, and white actually does 3-3 successfully several times even after the knight's move. Black could play closer to the corner, but then that's becoming increasingly inefficient.

Honestly, I think that perhaps black should have approached R10 from the bottom if he were going to approach at all. Black is trying to make a strong moyo/proto-territory on the top right, but the bottom is more suited to it because of the existing enclosure.

I agree, as do professional statistics - though approaching R10 from above has at least happened a very small number of times. I think the 3-4 in the top left makes it unpopular, black is more interested in that side (and there are many more pro examples) if he can approach (e.g.) a 4-4 there to build towards a large scale moyo.

I think the one space jump afterwards is more clearly bad though. If black tenukis after white's extension then any real badness of shape is above my own pay grade, but the one space jump immediately brings to mind ways I (as white) would like to take advantage of black's potential overconcentration.

This illustrates the danger of learning joseki.

Some thoughts about the 3-3 invasion.

Bill Spight wrote:This illustrates the danger of learning joseki.

Well, I would argue it's the danger of only knowing one joseki. When it comes strictly to points, the standard 3-3 invasion joseki is the best for minimizing white's points and building a wall. However, you are correct that black doesn't have to play the standard joseki. If sente matters then black could extend like you showed.

Regarding the variation you showed, my question is this: are all of the black moves there sente? Could white ignore blacks' second push, for example, and play a move on the outside right away? Black could reduce white's territory, but is the extension dangerous enough to kill white?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ White tenuki
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Also, I do not think an invasion in the top right is acceptable until the top left has been dealt with (which is why I showed it after a joseki in the top left). Without support from some kind of white enclosure or group, stones put anywhere near the post-invasion wall will be in deep trouble. Even if the group can make a base, black would be more than happy to attack a little two space extension base from his giant wall and he will get something out of such an attack.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm13
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . . . X 2 . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Interesting question about White shifting gears with , treating the invasion as a probe.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm13
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . . . X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 5 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . B . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

leaves a ko in the corner, and the stones are plainly too close.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm13
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . . . X 2 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Even if the descent at were a clean kill, this would not be a terrific result for Black. But it is not a clean kill, because White has aji in the corner. For instance, (most likely not played right away) threatens to connect underneath.

Perhaps this means that Black should block at 14 instead of 13, as it takes sente and makes a small gain, pretty much regardless of the left side.

Important lesson learned... never play absolute time games... (I'll give him this one. He had the guy by 70+ and lost because the other guy refused to pass and give him the fair win. ) No matter how many times I passed and got 3 more seconds the guy kept playing moves that made me respond. Eventually, I ran out of time. (To be fair you beat the guy pretty hard. He probably got mad at the fact that you used your time to beat him, so he used your time to beat you... )

At least it was a moral victory for me. A solid win under conditions I typically don't like: limited time. (This guy still doesn't know how life and death works... he needs a good 2 minutes to do a 15k problem...) I made some great moves, including sacing a large group in the corner to get outside influence and then using it to kill everything black had on half the board... (I'll give him that too, it was a nice pseudo-win.)

Here's my most recent loss for those who want to look at it... (Pretty sure he's just posting here for sympathy. On a side note: I'M BATMAN! )

W205 at T-03 would prevent seki.