Life In 19x19

NoSkill wrote:What bothers me is that I am doing nothing wrong and yet you look up my info.

If you are pulled over by the police because your taillight isn't working, you have done nothing wrong, but they will darn well look up your license number before approaching your car. It's a perfectly sensible thing to do. Chances are that you are not an escaping serial killer in a stolen vehicle, but they have no way of knowing that without looking.

And if they see something on your record or in your car that is not actually illegal, but seems suspicious and/or questionable...like, say, you have a bunch of high-power Gro-Lights in your back seat next to a book called 'Marijuana Farming for Fun and Profit" they will probably comment on it...just to let you know they have an eye on things. And maybe even search your car.

Maybe you have those lights for your hydroponic tomato greenhouse, and maybe the book was a gag gift from your friend with the questionable sense of humor, but the cop has no way of knowing that, so it's kind of ridiculous for you to get all personally insulted and go publicly gripe to the mayor about the fact that the cop had NO right to look in your back seat, and certainly no right to comment on the perfectly legal items he saw there.

The general conclusion of anyone hearing how loudly you complained would not be to sympathize about over-policing and the aspersions cast on your respectability, but to wonder what you were covering up, to protest so loudly over such a thing.

Inkwolf wrote:

NoSkill wrote:What bothers me is that I am doing nothing wrong and yet you look up my info.

If you are pulled over by the police because your taillight isn't working, you have done nothing wrong, but they will darn well look up your license number before approaching your car. It's a perfectly sensible thing to do. Chances are that you are not an escaping serial killer in a stolen vehicle, but they have no way of knowing that without looking.

And if they see something on your record or in your car that is not actually illegal, but seems suspicious and/or questionable...like, say, you have a bunch of high-power Gro-Lights in your back seat next to a book called 'Marijuana Farming for Fun and Profit" they will probably comment on it...just to let you know they have an eye on things. And maybe even search your car.

Maybe you have those lights for your hydroponic tomato greenhouse, and maybe the book was a gag gift from your friend with the questionable sense of humor, but the cop has no way of knowing that, so it's kind of ridiculous for you to get all personally insulted and go publicly gripe to the mayor about the fact that the cop had NO right to look in your back seat, and certainly no right to comment on the perfectly legal items he saw there.

The general conclusion of anyone hearing how loudly you complained would not be to sympathize about over-policing and the aspersions cast on your respectability, but to wonder what you were covering up, to protest so loudly over such a thing.

Because it's a real danger for an user who is being questioned to shoot the admin in the face through the internet. Also, multiple accounts is like owning marijuana growing guides.

illluck wrote:
Because it's a real danger for an user who is being questioned to shoot the admin in the face through the internet. Also, multiple accounts is like owning marijuana growing guides.

Not at all, but if you're doing something out of the ordinary, that could potentially be used for abusive reasons, they're going to take an interest.

And if you say admins shouldn't look at and note unusual or suspicious activity, one has to ask--why have admins at all?

I did nothing wrong and they look me up for no reason.. That is wrong, but I wouldn't care that much, but when they publicly give away info that I did not disclose that is a violation.

Inkwolf just keep making terrible comparisons that do not even make sense, I'm on an iPod so I can't type all the reasons you are wrong.

I suppose I just think admins should always see related accounts (those that have logged in via the same IPs) without having to look for them, and I can't quite see the rationale behind the opposing position.

Or at least, I don't see any principled reason why that information shouldn't always be available. Practically speaking, I imagine that if it were automatic, you'd start to see the effects of bad data from sheer numbers. And perhaps an admin should not automatically see through the latest 9d to show up on the server and see that it's really jimmyjoe's newest account.

If you want privacy, you can use methods to hide your IP. For example, you can use HTTP tunneling to get back on after getting banned.

BigDoug wrote:

jts wrote:Just out of curiosity, to the admins following the thread: if an admin actually were using the IP look-up to indulge in curiosity about a user who had done nothing wrong, would other admins view that as bad form?

A question can be asked of the admin for the reason for the IP look-up. The reaction would then presumably be based on the original reason for the investigation. It a very difficult question to answer without context.

Given the explicit context raised by the original poster, would you find such admin behavior acceptable? Is merely offering a teaching game in the KGS Teaching Ladder, while providing the ranks willing to be taught, but not providing your own, a valid reason to look up IP addresses? Even further, is publicly admonishing the user to provide a rank while revealing the high number of accounts acceptable admin behavior?

tapir wrote:Seriously, your IP address is included in every packet sent/received by your computer, yet somehow it is private?

It's private from other users, and it seems that admins have to explicitly look up accounts linked by IP address.

tapir wrote:If you feel the need to obscure it, do it, but usernames are not the right way. Their function is to identify people more consistently despite changing IP addresses not to obscure IP addresses.

I've never seen a policy on KGS that you can't have multiple accounts, as long as you aren't using them to do stuff like rank cheat. In fact, generally it seems acceptable, and multiple accounts are de facto private from other users unless you reveal yourself. The problem here is that an admin used their special privilege to reveal this information.

Inkwolf wrote:Not at all, but if you're doing something out of the ordinary, that could potentially be used for abusive reasons, they're going to take an interest.

And if you say admins shouldn't look at and note unusual or suspicious activity, one has to ask--why have admins at all?

But having multiple accounts isn't out of the ordinary for many regular players. It's talked about in public a lot, and usually there are good reasons behind it. And if an admin wants to note suspicious behaviour, that's fine, but why shout about it in public? Why not just keep an eye on that user and warn or ban them if/when necessary? (How many times have we all heard admins cry "no public accusations" about escapers?) I don't really care whether multiple accounts are allowed, but I do care about KGS admins trying to publicly show their users up for perfectly legitimate behaviour. It's unprofessional and childish.

PaperTiger wrote:Given the explicit context raised by the original poster, would you find such admin behavior acceptable? Is merely offering a teaching game in the KGS Teaching Ladder, while providing the ranks willing to be taught, but not providing your own, a valid reason to look up IP addresses? Even further, is publicly admonishing the user to provide a rank while revealing the high number of accounts acceptable admin behavior?

The assumption that you are making is that the admins are looking up this person's IP address in order to identify his or her accounts. I'm not aware of any evidence provided thus far which demonstrates that the admins are looking up the person's IP address. We only have the original poster's comment, nothing more. I don't recall reading that any admins confirmed to him or her that the IP addresses were investigated. (Of course, I may have overlooked this evidence in the thread, but I don't recall reading it.)

Congratulations, you just managed to reply to a post without addressing any of its contents, BigDoug.

PaperTiger didn't ask you about your opinion on whether the OP is suffering from paranoid delusions or the veracity of his claims, he asked you, assuming everything the OP said was completely true (and independent of whether that is actually the case), if you find the admin behaviour as described appropriate.

In order for this to not be a complete meta post, I guess I will add that I can understand the OP's annoyance, while at the same time I wouldn't feel it's a big enough issue to complain to anyone about it (ever).

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

raptor wrote:

Mef wrote:If you have a concern you always have admin@gokgs.com

To whom goes this email?
Seems a bit redundant if you write a complaint about an admin, and that admin is actually the one who gets your email :-p

You can always send a pm to wms ( aka William Shubert ) here at L19.

Good to know. Question is still open though.

How many KGS-haters can dance on the head of a pin?

Apparently very many. And if they don't have a valid reason, they'll create one.

Seriously, I agree there are issues with KGS, but I still think it's a great free service, overall. Why do people feel the need to continually attack it?

Go play a game of go instead, face-to-face, or on the server of your choice.

NoSkill wrote:Usually I think admins do a pretty good job, especially older ones like mef or Javaness, with only small amounts of banning for childish reasons.

However, I have noticed over 2-3 years senior admins, even the good ones, abusing the power to see accounts on ip (not email). I understand sandbagging, air bagging, or abusing guest accounts being stopped by this feature. However, I like to make new accounts or guest accounts and just open a FREE game and ask "anyone for a game" or "teaching game for 12k-5k". If people ask for my rank I feel the right to give/conceal as I'm not playing ranked, tournament games or misleading anyone to believe I am stronger or weaker. I find games with players who don't know my rank refreshing sometimes as they aren't afraid or underestimating me.

That is why when several times I have gotten upset when I post a free game in the KTL and type "game up for anyone" or "anyone want a game?" only for an admin to say "it's better to put your rank, as you should know" or "setup a game and they will come, as you should know with as many accounts as you have"


This is kind of unneeded I feel, and is a breach of privacy.

I don't usually play in the KTL, but I would assume there, unlike somewhere else, it *is* important to provide rank with game. You need to clearly identify yourself as a teacher or a student for what you do to make sense, no? And if you are a willing teacher, people need to know who you can teach and who you cannot teach. I mean - its not like in this room you just looking for a friendly unrated game, it is a *teaching* room, so it is more important to know who/what you are.

As for the IP lookup... really, you think your IP is such a big secret that even seeing it is a 'breach of privacy'?

But this is not even an issue here. We simply do not know *why* would an admin look up your IP, if they indeed did do that. They might see all kinds of abuse going on in the KTL and learned over time that looking up IP to find out who is who in suspicious situations is a quick way to determine if you are a problem or just ignorant.

Apparently, in your case they decided you were not a problem, thus just a friendly advice to put your rank up and case closed. To me, this is quite within the norm.

To be honest - I see absolutely no reason for you to complain or feel like your privacy was 'breached'. Your IP is *not* private, and even if it were, it was *not* made public, just looked up by somebody who has all the right to do so.

Honestly - I feel like you are looking very hard to feel somehow slighted and create a fuss over nothing.
I don't know why people are doing stuff like that.

wineandgolover wrote:How many KGS-haters can dance on the head of a pin?

Apparently very many. And if they don't have a valid reason, they'll create one.

Seriously, I agree there are issues with KGS, but I still think it's a great free service, overall. Why do people feel the need to continually attack it?

Go play a game of go instead, face-to-face, or on the server of your choice.

Let's generalize this idea:

"How many people have software that has features they don't care for, or that's difficult to use? Apparently very many. And if they don't have a reason, they'll create one. Seriously, there's computer software out there that has issues, but I still think that software is a great invention, overall. Why do people feel the need to continually attack it? Go do something else with your life. Don't voice the things that you don't like to the creators of the software you use."

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I'm a software engineer. Maybe one of the most fundamental aspects of designing software is to pay attention to the concerns and needs of the users. Sure, no software developer is obligated to listen to their users. But in the end, this will just result in a bad product. Your software might have a lot of cool features, and it might have a lot of things that you think are awesome. But if the users don't like it, it's pointless.

KGS is not just the software, server, and the admins that run it. It's also the users - the go community that plays there. If KGS didn't have TheCaptain, twoeye, and all of the users that people admire, it'd be useless. So telling people to hide their complaints and to, basically, shut up - well, that's a sure-fire way to increase the divide between the users and the software.

KGS doesn't have to listen to users or those that complain about it. But in the end, that just makes the product worse. Listening to users is the most basic of basics when it comes to software development.