Life In 19x19

palapiku wrote:I once saw a guy in a club play his first ever game of go. He played against a 4k and insisted on an even game...

Two hours later, the board was still mostly empty, all the black stones were completely dead and the guy took minutes on every move, thinking really hard and clearly not realizing the situation on the board. I left the club at that point so I don't know how long it took them to finish the game, probably a few more hours or at least until the club closed.

Next time someone doesn't resign a 15 pt loss just think how much worse it could get

The 4k could have insisted on a 9x9 game.

Maybe there is a cultural issue involved too: In many games and sports in "the West" it counts as impolite, even rude to resign (just think of a football match: it would be unthinkable that a team which is behind 0:6 refuses to play to the end but just leaves the field). And even I - being a really bad lawyer who lost an awfull lot of cases and therefor really should know better - am still unsure when to give up.
So maybe it would be a good idea if the stronger player just tips off the looser: Why not just say / write that the other player should resign now? I really think that in most cases it's just a problem of not counting correctly by the loosing side. Or would that again be rude?

I think that asking - or telling - one's opponent to resign is at least as rude as playing out the game when behind by a dozen or so points. The "you are wasting my time" argument has the clear implication that your time is more valuable than your opponent's.

Of course, anyone who has never seen his secure corner turned into a ko or seki late in a game is free to disagree.

So it's as I feared: The problem is not solveable (within the limits of the game and for a person raised in Europe, that is). Being a beginner I'm not able to count correctly therefor I'm in constant danger of being rude by not resigning. On the other hand the stronger player also can't hint that I should resign because that also would be rude. That's much to complicated for such a stupid guy like me. So I'm off to another hobby, knitting maybe. Never heard of rude knitting ...

Martin1974 wrote:[..] much to complicated for such a stupid guy like me. So I'm off to another hobby, knitting maybe. Never heard of rude knitting ...

Nooo, please stay, this game definitely is for funny and intelligent people

There's only one case where it's rude to play out a game.

You know you've lost, and you can tell your opponent thinks it's rude to play out a lost game.

The first part is easy, just ask yourself if you think you've lost. Maybe this will cause you to count the board. Counting is good. You should learn to count, anyway. You should have some idea of how accurate your counting is. If you're in byo-yomi, you may not have have time to count, so it's never rude to keep playing if your groups are alive.

The second part is harder. Some people give off body language that they are bored, some will just expect that you can read their minds. Some will make it very clear (HKA and DrStraw come to mind) their feelings on the subject.

Some people think "it's rude to play out a lost game" is a fact about the game and not a fact about their opinions. I recommend humoring these people if you choose to play them.

Martin1974 wrote: On the other hand the stronger player also can't hint that I should resign because that also would be rude.

I don't think hinting at resigning is the same thing as asking to resign. I think its at least less rude (if there's such a thing).

As a weak player, I personally would not take offense if a stronger player asked me to resign, especially if he first pointed out why he felt I was behind (because I'm obviously not seeing it for myself).

But then again, I'm usually not that easily offended by a lot of things/people anyway.

daniel_the_smith wrote:There's only one case where it's rude to play out a game.

You know you've lost, and you can tell your opponent thinks it's rude to play out a lost game.

The first part is easy, just ask yourself if you think you've lost.

I don't think this is so easy, because there isn't a binary true/false answer. I've played many games where I wanted to resign but persevered and won. There are games I've lost that I was dominating. I resign when I want to resign, and don't care what the opponent thinks. I'm not going to play pointless moves just to waste somebody's time, but if I think there's a reasonable chance at winning, even just 10%, I'll usually play.

Martin1974 wrote:Never heard of rude knitting ...

Oh my... such a sheltered life.

Yesterday my 30-points-behind opponent did not resign, managed to kill one of my corners when I was in byo-yomi, then berated me for not resigning!

PaperTiger wrote:

daniel_the_smith wrote:There's only one case where it's rude to play out a game.

You know you've lost, and you can tell your opponent thinks it's rude to play out a lost game.

The first part is easy, just ask yourself if you think you've lost.

I don't think this is so easy, because there isn't a binary true/false answer. ...

Yeah, it's not binary, so read the above "You're 95% sure you've lost, and you're 75% sure your opponent thinks it's rude to play out a lost game."

What I try to do:

1. Count
2. Never expect resignation as I still lose games due to late endgame fatigue and not seeing shortage of liberties.
3. Resign when I think even switching sides I could win against a pro.

Of course if I really believe 2) then 3) would in principle never be applied. Thus, never resign. But I do sometimes when I'm disgusted with my game.

For the OP's situation, that's probably a sandbagger, though I am very reluctant to accuse anyone of sandbagging as rating systems are all imperfect.

Martin1974 wrote:Never heard of rude knitting ...

Bah. Knitters are the worst. Haven't you heard of Stitch 'N Bitch?

Let's for a moment leave aside issues like being behind but the opponent in severe time trouble because that is a distraction from the real question here.

Focus on the presumed level of the players (~5 kyu)

Do we expect players at this level to be certain of the count? Do we expect them not to be making mistakes about large yose potentials or even life and death of groups? The two of those might be connected with a threat to the life or death of a group constituting a huge yose play; the group lives in gote but only by surrendering many yose points in sente. we should not expect 5 kyus to see these situations in advance of the small yose stage (missed that there was still a large yose play remaining).

In other words, left out of this question was an important "how close to the end of the game are we?". Is it clear that the life and death of all groups on the board is determined, there are no large yose plays left, and all that remains are little 1-2 pt plays? In my opinion 5 kyus shouldn't be resigning because 15 pts behind till this stage has been reached.

I have recently apologised for the inconvenience, asked permission to play it out... then had my opponent kindly miss a forcing move, lose a big group and then, narrowly, the game.

I guess there is won and won.