daniel_the_smith wrote:With AGA rules, it doesn't matter if the players use area or territory counting; the effect of the pass stone/white pass last combo is that they'll get the same winner no matter how they count.
It's important to realize that--if you happen to have one of those rare games in which (without pass stones) area and territory counting choose different winners--AGA rules choose the side which wins under area counting, NOT the side which wins with territory counting. AGA rules make territory counting give the same result as area counting. Dame are points!
This is confusing to the unsuspecting because people in the US ordinarily use territory counting!
Arg, amnal sniped me; all that to say, yes, I call them area rules because they give the result of area counting no matter how you actually count.
This, in my opinion, is exactly why territory counting should be used. Plus, area counting encourages lazy reading at the end of the game - no penalty for protecting a cut even if not needed - and that is a big negative.
Re: AGA rules and cultural barriers
Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:39 pm
by amnal
DrStraw wrote:Plus, area counting encourages lazy reading at the end of the game - no penalty for protecting a cut even if not needed - and that is a big negative.
To get to the point where the protection can be lazy, you first have to play out all the dame without protecting (or lose a point), exposing yourself to the maximum danger possible. You only get a chance for a free lazy move if your opponent gets the last dame and that's the one that might be threatening. So I can't really see that this is anything larger more a really small negative...it's misleading to suggest it even permits significant laziness, never mind that people actually bother. I don't think I've ever seen it make a difference to peoples behaviour.
On the other hand, if this is a 'really big' negative, I guess the ease of understanding how to decide stones are dead (for beginners...or for anyone when the situation gets icky) is a truly massive positive
Re: AGA rules and cultural barriers
Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:46 pm
by daniel_the_smith
I suppose one could argue that territory counting encourages laziness by not requiring you to determine if it's safe to fill in dame (since the game could end before dame are filled)... But I think we stray from the point.
Re: AGA rules and cultural barriers
Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:21 pm
by hyperpape
DrStraw wrote:Plus, area counting encourages lazy reading at the end of the game - no penalty for protecting a cut even if not needed
And?
Re: AGA rules and cultural barriers
Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:43 pm
by mhlepore
xed_over wrote:There was a lot of confusion this year at the US Go Congress in Tacoma.
... At the very least, something should have been written in each language highlighting the main differences of the AGA rule set. And eventually, we should also have the Rules themselves published in each of these languages.
Talking with some of those involved in running the open, I think there will be some added changes next year.
Simply getting up and declaring that "white must pass the last stone," will not sink in for everyone. Especially 1) those with limited English ability, 2) those who have never done anything more than hit the Pass button on their favorite internet server, and 3) those who learned to play a few weeks ago and are in their first tournament as a 30 kyu.
Also, the clock was a big problem for several foreigners, who did not have knowledge of how the byoyomi system worked. I think some kind of visual demo (maybe a video?) should be done to illustrate the concept of main time and overtime.
Re: AGA rules and cultural barriers
Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:06 pm
by RobertJasiek
mhlepore wrote:Simply getting up and declaring that "white must pass the last stone," will not sink in for everyone.
And then? Without this rule, AGA Rules make no sense.
Re: AGA rules and cultural barriers
Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:32 pm
by hyperpape
RobertJasiek wrote:
mhlepore wrote:Simply getting up and declaring that "white must pass the last stone," will not sink in for everyone.
And then? Without this rule, AGA Rules make no sense.
I think you're missing the point. You're right that this rule is necessary, but mhlepore is saying that merely stating this rule will leave many visitors rather confused. Some further explanation will be necessary to avoid misunderstandings.
Re: AGA rules and cultural barriers
Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:17 pm
by snorri
hyperpape wrote:
RobertJasiek wrote:
mhlepore wrote:Simply getting up and declaring that "white must pass the last stone," will not sink in for everyone.
And then? Without this rule, AGA Rules make no sense.
I think you're missing the point. You're right that this rule is necessary, but mhlepore is saying that merely stating this rule will leave many visitors rather confused. Some further explanation will be necessary to avoid misunderstandings.
Yes. There are people who will do pass stones without filling in all the dame.
Re: AGA rules and cultural barriers
Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:45 am
by HermanHiddema
$$B black to play $$ +-----------+ $$ | . . O O . | $$ | X X X O . | $$ | . . X O O | $$ | X . X O . | $$ | . X . O . | $$ +-----------+
[go]$$B B+1 $$ +-----------+ $$ | . a O O . | $$ | X X X O . | $$ | . . X O O | $$ | X . X O . | $$ | . X b O . | $$ +-----------+[/go]
if black a and white b, black has 8+5 points and white 8+4 points (area), or 5 to 4 (territory) -- B+1
if black b and white a, then black takes last dame in the corner next to a, and white passes last stone, so black has 9+4 points and white 8+4 (area), or 4 to 3 (territory; because of pass stone) -- B+1
Either a or b yields the same result. Am I missing your point? (or did I miscount)
edit: I didn't look at it earlier, but black could play in the corner next to a first and the result is still the same.
edit again to correct spelling mistake (count -> could)
Re: AGA rules and cultural barriers
Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:35 am
by mumps
Some information that's more suitable for display (and translation?) at tournaments can be seen via this page: http://www.britgo.org/rules/aga.html
Cheers
Jon
Re: AGA rules and cultural barriers
Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:51 am
by xed_over
mumps wrote:Some information that's more suitable for display (and translation?) at tournaments can be seen via this page: http://www.britgo.org/rules/aga.html
Cheers
Jon
The AGA invented this rule set. I don't understand why they don't have something similar on their own website.
Well done BGA!
Re: AGA rules and cultural barriers
Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:53 am
by HermanHiddema
xed_over wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:
$$B black to play $$ +-----------+ $$ | . . O O . | $$ | X X X O . | $$ | . . X O O | $$ | X . X O . | $$ | . X . O . | $$ +-----------+
[go]$$B B+1 $$ +-----------+ $$ | . a O O . | $$ | X X X O . | $$ | . . X O O | $$ | X . X O . | $$ | . X b O . | $$ +-----------+[/go]
if black a and white b, black has 8+5 points and white 8+4 points (area), or 5 to 4 (territory) -- B+1
if black b and white a, then black takes last dame in the corner next to a, and white passes last stone, so black has 9+4 points and white 8+4 (area), or 4 to 3 (territory; because of pass stone) -- B+1
Either a or b yields the same result. Am I missing your point? (or did I miscount)
edit: I didn't look at it earlier, but black count play in the corner next to a first and the result is still the same.
Correct. All of a, b or the upper left 1-1 point give the same result.
The point was that this is, IMO, a weakness of area scoring rules.
Re: AGA rules and cultural barriers
Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:19 am
by xed_over
HermanHiddema wrote:The point was that this is, IMO, a weakness of area scoring rules.
Sure, I don't disagree this point. But this same "weakness" is also true in Chinese rules. I'd be curious to hear what strong/professional Chinese players recommend as the best play and why (or why not).
I think the point of AGA rules is to compromise between the large Chinese population used to area based scoring and the rest of the population used to territory based scoring. It seems a fair compromise to me.
Re: AGA rules and cultural barriers
Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:31 am
by John Fairbairn
The point was that this is, IMO, a weakness of area scoring rules.
Proponents of AGA rules and similar concoctions tend to use two claims to bolster their systems: elegance and ease of use for beginners.
When the general Japanese go population first encountered Chinese rules through many articles in go magazines in the 1930s to 1960s, this sort of aesthetic point was often made, and it is one that many professionals still cleave to.
Mathematics-biased researchers often attach an almost religious awe to a different aesthetic: elegance. But no-one has made a convincing case why the theoretical aesthetic of elegance should outweigh the practical aesthetic of Japanese rules. Even outside of go, the Japanese cultural aesthetic is generally uncomfortable with perfection - a small flaw, or "happy accident" in an objet d'art is usually esteemed.
With regard to ease of use by beginners, as the Congress shows and as is only to be expected of such endeavours, the Law of Unintended Effects kicks in, and the regular players (the mass, after all) just end up confused.
Don't expect AGA rules to sweep the world any time soon.
