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Re: AGA Seeking twitch.tv Streamers for Go
Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:58 am
by hyperpape
I think the Strawman is that you're vastly overestimating the reliability and compatibility of modern web apps. I guess things are starting to reach a "good enough" point with the newer phones, but the browsers have been bad for quite a long time.
I do think the approach of building a responsive, standards compliant website is ultimately more accessible than writing a bunch of native apps, but the gap is smaller than you might think, and the native apps often have better performance and UI characteristics. Even discoverability is a less obvious of a distinction, since URLs present such a messed up UI for mobile devices.
Re: AGA Seeking twitch.tv Streamers for Go
Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:10 am
by speedchase
hyperpape wrote:I think the Strawman is that you're vastly overestimating the reliability and compatibility of modern web apps.
That is not what a strawman is!
Re: AGA Seeking twitch.tv Streamers for Go
Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:15 am
by skydyr
hyperpape wrote:I think the Strawman is that you're vastly overestimating the reliability and compatibility of modern web apps. I guess things are starting to reach a "good enough" point with the newer phones, but the browsers have been bad for quite a long time.
I do think the approach of building a responsive, standards compliant website is ultimately more accessible than writing a bunch of native apps, but the gap is smaller than you might think, and the native apps often have better performance and UI characteristics. Even discoverability is a less obvious of a distinction, since URLs present such a messed up UI for mobile devices.
Well, I also think that websites making heavy use of flash or other plugins for functionality are bad too, since they aren't easily searchable and don't link as well, though I realize many people disagree with me. Ideally, though, one would present video or other features in a standards compliant manner. Hopefully HTML 5 will help provide this, though it too may have issues.
Re: AGA Seeking twitch.tv Streamers for Go
Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:57 am
by hyperpape
skydyr wrote:hyperpape wrote:I think the Strawman is that you're vastly overestimating the reliability and compatibility of modern web apps. I guess things are starting to reach a "good enough" point with the newer phones, but the browsers have been bad for quite a long time.
I do think the approach of building a responsive, standards compliant website is ultimately more accessible than writing a bunch of native apps, but the gap is smaller than you might think, and the native apps often have better performance and UI characteristics. Even discoverability is a less obvious of a distinction, since URLs present such a messed up UI for mobile devices.
Well, I also think that websites making heavy use of flash or other plugins for functionality are bad too, since they aren't easily searchable and don't link as well, though I realize many people disagree with me. Ideally, though, one would present video or other features in a standards compliant manner. Hopefully HTML 5 will help provide this, though it too may have issues.
I'm a 100% percent in agreement about Flash, but I think that doesn't change anything I wrote. My point was not about Flash.
Re: AGA Seeking twitch.tv Streamers for Go
Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:14 am
by daal
Nice job beating Twoeye! Funny thing for me while watching was that shapenaji said "Maybe I can kill him?"(18:20) about 25 moves after I thought it. All the while he was thinking: "If he lives small everywhere, I win." Good learning moment for me.
Re: AGA Seeking twitch.tv Streamers for Go
Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:18 am
by skydyr
hyperpape wrote:skydyr wrote:hyperpape wrote:I think the Strawman is that you're vastly overestimating the reliability and compatibility of modern web apps. I guess things are starting to reach a "good enough" point with the newer phones, but the browsers have been bad for quite a long time.
I do think the approach of building a responsive, standards compliant website is ultimately more accessible than writing a bunch of native apps, but the gap is smaller than you might think, and the native apps often have better performance and UI characteristics. Even discoverability is a less obvious of a distinction, since URLs present such a messed up UI for mobile devices.
Well, I also think that websites making heavy use of flash or other plugins for functionality are bad too, since they aren't easily searchable and don't link as well, though I realize many people disagree with me. Ideally, though, one would present video or other features in a standards compliant manner. Hopefully HTML 5 will help provide this, though it too may have issues.
I'm a 100% percent in agreement about Flash, but I think that doesn't change anything I wrote. My point was not about Flash.
I think we're in agreement for the most part then. I agree that many web apps aren't particularly good, but I would rather than development efforts go to fixing those web apps and browsers, and towards increasing their reliability, than towards providing stand-alone apps that function primarily to transfer and view online content.
If you want to continue discussing this, perhaps we should transfer this to another thread.
Re: AGA Seeking twitch.tv Streamers for Go
Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:21 am
by hyperpape
speedchase wrote:hyperpape wrote:I think the Strawman is that you're vastly overestimating the reliability and compatibility of modern web apps.
That is not what a strawman is!
I can't recall if I meant to type something else. Certainly that sounds odd.*
But while we're talking about what a strawman is, I might use this example to explain why I think talking about logical fallacies is typically a lot less valuable than many people think.
speedchase wrote:Not quite... a straw man is when someone makes an argument against an argument that wasn't actually made. Skydyr is making the argument that he doesn't like flash because it requires him to have a separate app for every flash based website he visits (which is true and not a straw-man).
Paraphrasing:
Redundant says: "they have mobile apps"
Skydyr says: "who wants a mobile app for every website?"
Redundant says: "that's a strawman".
Is or is this not a strawman? It's hard to tell.
On the face of it, Redundant didn't say that you should have a mobile app for every website you visit, so it's paradigmatic example of a strawman. On the other, perhaps Skydyr is just using a hyperbolic way of saying "that's too much trouble", and that Redundant's cavalierness about a mobile app really does lead to an unmanageable mess of apps on all our phones.
God only knows which perspective makes more sense, but does it even matter? The real question is "how much of a pain in the ass is it to need a mobile app to use this service" and identifying logical fallacies won't help you answer that (since logical fallacies are supposed to be about the forms of an argument, not the substantive conclusions). At best, logical fallacies show that one particular formulation of an argument that was stated is bad. But to a first approximation, all arguments are invalid or unsound, and our job is to figure out when it actually matters, in the same way that mathematicians don't reject a proof as soon as one line contains a typo.
* If I really wanted to push my luck, I'd say that this is actually a strawman: Skydyr was misrepresenting his opponents as somehow being indifferent or oblivious to the supposed compatibility advantages of web apps, when really they just know that it's a pipe dream. But I think I just misspoke.
Re: AGA Seeking twitch.tv Streamers for Go
Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:23 am
by snorri
shapenaji wrote::) thanks, starting up the stream in about 10 min!
I checked out some. These are great entertainment. Some of the old ones are good, too. I preferred you with the facial hair. What's up with that?
It cracked me up when you answered the phone to put off your girlfriend while playing a blitz game.
There was one where your friend Robert? joined you and I think that kind of banter is fun to watch. I can't find it now. Maybe put some descriptions in to distinguish the recordings? Reality go TV!
I like the way you answer questions from your chess friends, too. This is a creative alternative advertisement for the game. Good job!
Re: AGA Seeking twitch.tv Streamers for Go
Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:12 am
by speedchase
It isn't a Strawman because Skydyr's argument wasn't countering an argument but rather making an argument of its own. A strawman is when you pretend to win an argument by attacking a point nobody has made. I agree with you that it is generally unfruitful to point out logical fallacies unless they are extremely blatant, and the lynch-pin of someones argument. I only got involved in that type of discussion because Redundant said skydyr's argument was a straw-man when it obviously wasn't.
Re: AGA Seeking twitch.tv Streamers for Go
Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:43 pm
by shapenaji
snorri wrote:shapenaji wrote::) thanks, starting up the stream in about 10 min!
I checked out some. These are great entertainment. Some of the old ones are good, too. I preferred you with the facial hair. What's up with that?
It cracked me up when you answered the phone to put off your girlfriend while playing a blitz game.
There was one where your friend Robert? joined you and I think that kind of banter is fun to watch. I can't find it now. Maybe put some descriptions in to distinguish the recordings? Reality go TV!
I like the way you answer questions from your chess friends, too. This is a creative alternative advertisement for the game. Good job!
Thanks!
The facial hair comes in waves, like seasons...
All that grows must be reaped eventually!
Re: AGA Seeking twitch.tv Streamers for Go
Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:59 pm
by hyperpape
I disagree, but I'll act out of character and not derail the thread further.
Re: AGA Seeking twitch.tv Streamers for Go
Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:45 am
by Boidhre
shapenaji wrote:Thanks!
The facial hair comes in waves, like seasons...
All that grows must be reaped eventually!
Thanks shapenaji, streaming looks fun I may give people a weaker play to laugh at (along with!). However your streams are perfect for me introducing my strategy game playing friends to the game, so thank you very much for something very useful.
Re: AGA Seeking twitch.tv Streamers for Go
Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:09 pm
by uriel
I hope you continue streaming, shapenaji. I've really enjoyed your feed so far. Also, I can't find most of your videos anymore; have they been removed, or am I just clueless WRT twitch?
Re: AGA Seeking twitch.tv Streamers for Go
Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:00 pm
by Redundant
uriel wrote:I hope you continue streaming, shapenaji. I've really enjoyed your feed so far. Also, I can't find most of your videos anymore; have they been removed, or am I just clueless WRT twitch?
Past broadcasts get deleted after a week or two.
Re: AGA Seeking twitch.tv Streamers for Go
Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:20 pm
by shapenaji
Yeah, I didn't realize that until now, I'll have to make some new ones.
Stuff got busy, should die down in a couple days and then I'll be up and streaming again.