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Re: xkcd

Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:09 am
by Boidhre
Mike Novack wrote:
Boidhre wrote:
Computer aided cheating is a serious problem. There have even been instances of it in organised live tournament play. Some live chess servers have programs running on your PC that keep track of what processes are on the machine whilst you're logged into their server. Like MMOs do for catching bots. It's rather controversial.


ROFLOL I bet "controversial". Pity the poor folks among us who would keep trying to convince the rest that is would be USELESS except to catch ignorant/naive cheaters.

You don't understand? Precisely how does ANY server know what is or is not running on that powerful second computer sitting next to me that has no connection to the outside world?


Yup. This has been pointed out so, so many times. Especially since on one of the servers you can play on your iPad/Android tablet...

Re: xkcd

Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:39 pm
by Phoenix
We haven't identified here what we're afraid of, inherently. I believe the issue at hand is the end of human contribution.

At the amateur level, it matters little what one is doing to pump their ranking or cheat. If money isn't involved, if the level isn't extremely high, the art remains unfazed.

At the professional level, there are two main reasons why money is exchanged for performance. The player provides entertainment first, then progress in their field. As our 'athletes' strive to go one step further than the competition, they end up adding to the theory of the game as a whole. The art progresses.

The problem with Chess AI beating top players is that we feel that the progress of the art is no longer up to us as creative, intelligent individuals. Find a good move in a position and the computer will (most often) match or exceed it. It scares us that computers can contribute to a field which was (is?) believed to require wholly human qualities. Creativity, adaptability, strategy.

The professional Chess scene marches on because the people have spoken. It still retains its entertainment value despite the drastic changes that Chess-playing AI have brought.

Go, as we understand it, is much more complex than Chess. We humans have learned to cope with heuristics, selective reading and theory. Up to four thousand years of trial-and-error. Go retains its nigh-mystical image of a game for which many different qualities, most very human, are necessary for high-level play. How would you play like a top pro without fighting spirit, patience, imagination and a sense of balance, among other things?

Well as it turns out, Go-playing AI are catching up wayyyyy fast.

Does this mean that these so-human qualities which distinguish us from animals, trees, bacteria, rock, air, are nothing more than heuristics of their own? Can they be explained in a simple, surgical manner as science links up one neuron to another, while computer programs learn to emulate and excel at being human?

Scary thoughts. In ten years, Go programs could point out dozens of flawed moves in each of Iyama Yuta's games and condemn us for opening anywhere but on tengen. In the process they would slacken and ultimately remove our failing grasp of a game of our own creation that we've been striving to master for millennia. What could we then claim as our own, as a species?

And in two decades, supercomputers will prove to us, conclusively, that we have no souls and will immediately proceed to devour our insides. :mrgreen:

Re: xkcd

Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:54 pm
by tj86430
I know this is (more or less) offtopic, but this seems like a perfect thread to ask: I'm reasonably aware of the current status of poker playing software (in short: heads-up limit texas is pretty much "solved", HU NL texas is quite close, others not so much), but does anyone know of the situation regarding open-face chinese poker (2, 3 or 4-handed)? In contrast to traditional poker there is no betting involved, and the game (despite it's name) is purely logical and of complete information. Therefore it seems "easy" to implement a program that plays better than humans.

The game is rapidly gaining interest, and some small gambling sites are already offering it, with rumors about the big ones starting to offer it soon. However, AFAIK e.g. backgammon is totally dead as a game played with money over the internet, due to the fact that computers beat any human any time. So, my question is whether this will happen to OFC as well (probably it will, but how soon)? Does anyone on this forum have any insight on OFC playing software and their capabilities against humans?

Re: xkcd

Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:37 am
by Dudoso
Phoenix wrote:Does this mean that these so-human qualities which distinguish us from animals, trees, bacteria, rock, air, are nothing more than heuristics of their own? Can they be explained in a simple, surgical manner as science links up one neuron to another, while computer programs learn to emulate and excel at being human?

:mrgreen:


If a 10p Go playing program proves the above, so does an ELO 3000+ Chess playing program. Chess players believed, not so long ago, that computers would never pose a challenge because of these unique human qualities and were proven wrong. No point claiming the same for Go. No further proof is required, as it's a difference of degree, no kind. We could always devise a 38x38 Go game or a 3 level chess game and claim computers are not strong at it yet (neither would we) but the challenge has moved to the things we're still good at. Pattern recognition problems, mostly. I think few people still believe that we'll outmatch the silicon mind for more than about a generation.

Dudoso