Life In 19x19

Pippen wrote:I'd be interested in a match-up "10 best amateurs vs. 10 best pro's" (no insei's or almost pro's allowed as amateurs) to find out if amateurs can win against pro's with 2 HC. That would clearify lot about the strength of pro's comapred to the amateur ranking system.

But that is perhaps different than the the original question. The question isn't whether the top pros are better (and how much better) than the top amateurs but whether the typical pro is better (if at all) than the top amateurs.

logan wrote:What do you think the reasons are for 6d+s often preferring blitz games over non-blitz games? For example, if you were a 6d+ choosing a game type, why would you decide on blitz most of the time?

Well, I can't be sure, since I'm neither 6d+ nor I like blitz games. An educated guess is that amateurs that are very good at something don't really enjoy stretching their abilities to the maximum unless absolutely needed. It's like... don't know, an amateur soccer player. While not in training or a match, they'd rather play a pick up game than play a tiring match that will deplete their energy (forget about injuries heh). Actually the same argument can be used for professional players.

I don't think there is a gap between amateurs and pros. For example, Sakai Hideyuki has been mentioned already. He won the WAGC twice and then decided to become a pro go player. He was already a graduate of medical school and made a career choice in favor of go. The relevant thing here is that he started as 5p in the Kansai Ki-in by playing a match with a 9p player. He defended that ranking in tournaments afterwards so, essentially, he was 5p strength when he was still an amateur. Kikuchi Yasuro, also a winner of the WAGC, was widely considered to be of mid-level pro strength. He never became a pro though his go school has produced some Japanese big title holders. I think the winners of the WAGC are in general of pro strength, probably stronger than 1p. And the winners of the top Japanese, Korean, and Chinese amateur tournaments are probably all of professional strength and probably stronger than 1p. It is not unusual that people do reach professional playing strength as amateurs and choose not to become professionals. As has been discussed often on these message boards, it can be difficult to earn a good living as a professional player so it may well be a rational choice not to become a pro. It is difficult to make a general comparison of pro strength versus amateur strength. We've seen statements to the effect that Korean 1p players are stronger than many 9p players. I think that is probably an exaggeration but it is certainly true that the playing strength of pros of the same rank varies considerably. In any case there is no sizable gap between amateur high rank players and pro 1p players.

One place it has been discussed before:

http://www.361points.com/blog/2010/03/2 ... l-players/

Think of it as a Venn diagram where the edges barely touch. Sure, the very best amateurs can play with the pros, and no doubt there are current pros who would lose to current insei. But both of those are small groups, and basically the exceptions that prove the rule.

snorri wrote:One place it has been discussed before:

http://www.361points.com/blog/2010/03/2 ... l-players/

I think there is no doubt that most high dan pros, especially title contenders, can give handicaps to most top European amateurs, even 6d or 7d. The fact is that top pros can give handicaps to average 1p players (average, not exceptionally strong 1p's). The question was not whether there is a gap between top amateurs and top pros but whether there is a gap between top amateurs and everyday, low rank, pros and I think that there is no such gap.

Just today (at KGS: "eurogotv3") D. Surin, a 6dKGS, did beat A.Dinerchtein, a 3p. It emphasizes that the best amateurs are on the same level with average pro's. Only the top pro's might be two full stones stronger. I am a 1d at KGS and I think that I could beat Lee Sedol with HC9, e.g. in 10 serious games I might win at least 1-2 games.

Pippen wrote:Just today (at KGS: "eurogotv3") D. Surin, a 6dKGS, did beat A.Dinerchtein, a 3p. It emphasizes that the best amateurs are on the same level with average pro's. Only the top pro's might be two full stones stronger. I am a 1d at KGS and I think that I could beat Lee Sedol with HC9, e.g. in 10 serious games I might win at least 1-2 games.

What is your definition of "average pro"?

Kirby wrote:

Pippen wrote:Just today (at KGS: "eurogotv3") D. Surin, a 6dKGS, did beat A.Dinerchtein, a 3p. It emphasizes that the best amateurs are on the same level with average pro's. Only the top pro's might be two full stones stronger. I am a 1d at KGS and I think that I could beat Lee Sedol with HC9, e.g. in 10 serious games I might win at least 1-2 games.

What is your definition of "average pro"?

= pro's not Lee Sedol, LeeChangHo, Gu Li (and pro's that are considered as about good as them).

Pippen wrote:

Kirby wrote:

Pippen wrote:Just today (at KGS: "eurogotv3") D. Surin, a 6dKGS, did beat A.Dinerchtein, a 3p. It emphasizes that the best amateurs are on the same level with average pro's. Only the top pro's might be two full stones stronger. I am a 1d at KGS and I think that I could beat Lee Sedol with HC9, e.g. in 10 serious games I might win at least 1-2 games.

What is your definition of "average pro"?

= pro's not Lee Sedol, LeeChangHo, Gu Li (and pro's that are considered as about good as them).

Not to belittle Dinerchtein's achievements, but I'm not sure if KGS 6d beating him says anything about the difference between best amateurs and average pros.

I do think it's generally pretty widely accepted that top Chinese and Korean amateurs are pretty much average pro strength though.

Yes, you can look at Dinerchtein's record and rating and see that he's not as strong as he was when he came home from Korea. I also believe that he said he simply wasn't as strong as the Korean players who gained pro status while he was in training (here's one source: http://breakfast.go4go.net/?About_me).

In the same vein, you might note how well Antti Tormanen is currently doing in Europe. He performed respectably while in Japan, but never reached the top level of Japanese insei. Maybe he could have if he had more time for his results to level out, but that's speculation.

Right, from teaching and playing amateurs all day and not being much involved in his pro matches Alexandre's really regressed. It's a shared phenomenon I've heard from other modern pros who end up teaching or playing weaker players for awhile. Also, Alexandre received his professional ranking through special recommendation, not by winning it through yeongusaeng competition.

Pippen wrote:Just today (at KGS: "eurogotv3") D. Surin, a 6dKGS, did beat A.Dinerchtein, a 3p.

Surin isn't KGS 6d, according to the relayer he doesn't even play on KGS. He's EGF 6d. And breakfast is EGF 7d.

Pippen wrote:Just today (at KGS: "eurogotv3") D. Surin, a 6dKGS, did beat A.Dinerchtein, a 3p. It emphasizes that the best amateurs are on the same level with average pro's. Only the top pro's might be two full stones stronger. I am a 1d at KGS and I think that I could beat Lee Sedol with HC9, e.g. in 10 serious games I might win at least 1-2 games.

Regarding pros, there is nothing typical or average about A. Dinerchtein, so he isn't really relevant to the discussion. When D. Surin starts beating active Asian 3-6 dans, let's talk.

Seriously, isn't the strongest player in Europe a former insei, not even a 1P?

On your last point, I doubt that I, another KGS 1D, could beat Lee Sedol with nine handicap stones, but I hope someday one of us gets the opportunity to try.

wineandgolover wrote:

Pippen wrote:Just today (at KGS: "eurogotv3") D. Surin, a 6dKGS, did beat A.Dinerchtein, a 3p. It emphasizes that the best amateurs are on the same level with average pro's. Only the top pro's might be two full stones stronger. I am a 1d at KGS and I think that I could beat Lee Sedol with HC9, e.g. in 10 serious games I might win at least 1-2 games.

Regarding pros, there is nothing typical or average about A. Dinerchtein, so he isn't really relevant to the discussion. When D. Surin starts beating active Asian 3-6 dans, let's talk.

Seriously, isn't the strongest player in Europe a former insei, not even a 1P?

On your last point, I doubt that I, another KGS 1D, could beat Lee Sedol with nine handicap stones, but I hope someday one of us gets the opportunity to try.

I mostly agree, but 9 stones is a lot. At some level, amateurs might be able to beat God with 9 stones...