4-3 Attachment Joseki

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ez4u
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Re: 4-3 Attachment Joseki

Post by ez4u »

Kirby wrote:
ez4u wrote:
More to the point in terms of the OP is that the attachment at the 4-3 point is extremely rare. The position below with a Black stone on the side occurs about 1,000 times in GoGoD. White played :w1: only three times. In contrast "a" was played 203 times and "b" 55 times. In fact White did not rush to the corner in any case. And by the way, Black answered on the outside at :b2: in all three games. In general the outside play occurs in actual practice much more often than the inside play.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Continuations
$$- - - - - - - - - - - - - +
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . a b . . . |
$$. . X . . . . . 2 1 . . . |
$$. . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$[/go]
Thanks, Dave. Yes, I agree that the alternatives posed in your last diagram may be better here. Still, I was mainly curious about the 4-3 option in general, and I just needed a board position to set it up on.

Perhaps the one I selected wasn't the best example.
Your question was interesting as was your choice of board position. We just haven't yet had time to get through all the implications! :blackeye:

If we tighten up our search space as below, we find that although playing "a" is the most common choice, Black plays elsewhere about 25% of the time (11 out of 45 cases; I'm on my net book with an older version of GoGoD so there might be a couple more by now). That includes cases like the first game below where Takao played a pincer similar to your idea. It also includes cases like the second game where no pincer was available but Black wasn't willing to accept gote.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Continuations
$$- - - - - - - - +
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . X . . |
$$. c . O O X . . |
$$e b . O X . . . |
$$d . . . a . . . |
$$. . . . . X . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Takao Shinji (White) - Cho U; 36th Kisei Game 4; 2012-02-15,16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O 9 . . . . . , . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . 0 . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . 7 1 8 . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O 2 . . . . , . . O O O O X X . |
$$ | . O O 3 . O . . . . . X X O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Xie He (White) - Wang Lei Sr.; 13th Mingren; 2000-03-13
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . O . . . . X . 8 X X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . 7 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 0 . , . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . 4 . O . 3 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . 9 . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Another interesting related point is that although the attachment is very rare with the knight move below, and is answered mainly with the outside hane at :b2:...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Continuations
$$- - - - - - - - - - - - - +
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . X . . . . . 2 1 . . . |
$$. . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
The attachment is the most frequent choice with the large knight move, and is usually answered by the inside hane at :b2: (better than 3 to 1 over the alternative at "a").
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Continuations
$$- - - - - - - - - - - - - +
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . X . . . . . a 1 2 . . |
$$. . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
I assume this reflects that the position below feels more efficient than when the marked stone is on "a". White has to expect Black to resist with the small knight on the board.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Efficiency Issue
$$- - - - - - - - - - - - - +
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$. . X . . . . . O O X . . |
$$. . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
Finally, lest you think that the large knight rules out the possibility for Black to resist...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Zhang Huaiyi (White) - Chen Huimin; 13th Taiwan Zhonghuan Cup; 2006-04-04
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . X X O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , O O . O O X X . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O X O X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 2 4 5 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . 0 . O X 3 7 . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . 1 . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
As always YMMV, but never say "Never!" in Go :rambo:
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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emerus
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Re: 4-3 Attachment Joseki

Post by emerus »

macelee wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . # . . X . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . c . O X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . a . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . b . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X O O X . O . . O . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Territory-oriented players will find the :w1: / :b2: exchange unbearable. Not only the territory in the corner is reduced, but also some aji can be exploited later. For example, :w3: is a large move, leaving further reduction at 'a'. So in my opinion black actually loses many points here.
Was anyone else blind to :w3: as a nice checking extension? I was swayed by Kirby's argument until macalee showed us this diagram.
Bill Spight wrote:The 4-3 attachment is much more applied to the position after the large knight's extension from the 4-4 stone, and the inside hane is also more frequent in that case. Besides the same issue comes up, in a slightly different form.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Joseki with same question
$$- - - - - - - - - - - - - +
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$. . X . . 7 . . 3 1 2 . . |
$$. . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . 5 . 6 . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$[/go]
Why not :b6: at 7?
Good question. I was curious if it was related to a similar checking extension on the right side. However, after some exploring on my own. I agree with moyoaji's analysis that it's simply more important that white gets easy access to the center - rendering :b4: into a second line move with very little impact on white's base.
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