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Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:29 am
by tj86430
Boidhre wrote:I'm actually surprised by the Irish result. We've been driving our education system into the ground head first for quite some time now.
That's what I would say about the Finnish system, too. Apparently the tests don't agree with me (although Finland doesn't do as well in the tests as it used to do)
Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:53 am
by Bill Spight
In the US the main difference between schools that explains most of the difference in scores on standardized tests is the socio-economic class of the students. Part of that is the fact that the US funds schools mainly through property taxes, so that schools in affluent areas get more money. Part of it has to do with the loss of academic skills by poorer students during summer vacations. Anyway, affluent students in the US score well on international standardized tests, even though you can hardly say that they are more disciplined than other US students.
tchan's post makes me wonder if class plays a role in Hong Kong. How can poor parents compete to get their kids into elite pre-schools?
Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:24 pm
by paK0
tj86430 wrote:Boidhre wrote:I'm actually surprised by the Irish result. We've been driving our education system into the ground head first for quite some time now.
That's what I would say about the Finnish system, too. Apparently the tests don't agree with me (although Finland doesn't do as well in the tests as it used to do)
Thats quite interesting, literally everytime someone brings up flaws in the German education-system the first answer given is always: Look how Finnland does it.
@thread: I don't think the education-system of a country does have anything to do with how good that country is at go though. When it comes to sports competition usually the countries that do well are the ones where to sport is recognized the most/really popular.
Suppose if a kid really likes Go from an early age on and studies to become really good. In Korea/Japan/China you can monetize that skill by becoming a pro, in Europe and America its a lot harder to get paid for being good at go.
Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:57 pm
by Boidhre
tj86430 wrote:Boidhre wrote:I'm actually surprised by the Irish result. We've been driving our education system into the ground head first for quite some time now.
That's what I would say about the Finnish system, too. Apparently the tests don't agree with me (although Finland doesn't do as well in the tests as it used to do)
Our two current linked issues are: (well no, the popular press ones rather than actual)
Teacher salaries still being tied to the boom more than the current economic reality. Result: Understaffing as schools don't have enough money to meet enough salaries.
Very poor teacher:student ratios.
People point to Finland because, lower salaries and lower ratios and good results compared to us. That and Finland is comparable population size wise to us which helps, neither country can get the economies of scale of say France or Germany or suffer from the greater bureaucratic load that such size brings either.
Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:15 pm
by tapir
paK0 wrote:Thats quite interesting, literally everytime someone brings up flaws in the German education-system the first answer given is always: Look how Finnland does it.
Only because it is inconvenient to state the obvious: the East German education system was superior, so people have to refer to Finland instead. Polytechnical education, comprehensive school instead of selection in the 4th grade, comparable exams are just a few points. At least with regard to the exams Germany is slowly learning.
Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:05 pm
by tchan001
Bill Spight wrote:tchan's post makes me wonder if class plays a role in Hong Kong. How can poor parents compete to get their kids into elite pre-schools?
http://www.gov.hk/en/about/abouthk/fact ... cation.pdfAll eligible children are, on application, allocated Primary 1 places in government and aided primary schools through the Primary One Admission System. The system consists of the Discretionary Places (DP) stage and the Central Allocation (CA) stage. At the DP stage, parents can apply for admission to only one government or aided primary school of their preference, and admission is based on the criteria prescribed by the EDB. At the CA stage, P1 places are centrally allocated by the EDB according to the school net, parents’ choice of schools, and a given random number.
I don't think poor parents can afford elite pre-schools or kindergartens. Most of which are not willing to receive government assistance due to the government restrictions on what the assisted schools can charge and how parts of the curriculum must be structured.
Parents who live in the New Territories area of HK near the Chinese border are also faced with enormous competition from mainland Chinese whose children were born in Hong Kong hospitals. There have been so many of these children applying for places in HK because their parents prefer HK education that to get the application for preschool or kindergarten would take maybe 1 to 1-1/2 day of queuing and then again for turning in the application prior to interviewing. There was one school where parents started queuing 3 days ahead to get the application as reported by local newspapers.
More info:
http://therealnewshk.wordpress.com/2013 ... ten-years/
Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:25 pm
by tekesta
hyperpape wrote:We should probably leave the United States out of it, because our system has such a particular pattern of dysfunction. My understanding is that the United States educational system is primarily so bad because it leaves particular disadvantaged students behind (
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20 ... l-america/). Teasing out which elements of the system are working and which aren't makes aggregate statistics rather pointless.
I have read the article and some of the comments attached. Appears to me like a repetition of something that has been seen before over and over again. Namely, the combination of under-funding in schools located in low-income neighborhoods and the supposed lack of love for learning that is prevalent in the same. Of course not all poor persons in the US lack a love for learning; there are in fact many that do love to learn, but due to economic circumstances cannot indulge their passion. The worry about financial security is so strong and pervasive that most working-class people do not have much time for intellectual pursuits.
The best thing for the US at this stage would be for the Federal government to supplement funding of local school budgets through property tax revenue and invest heavily in public education, primarily in lower-class neighborhoods, but of course this is too socialistic a policy for most Americans, not to mention expensive.
As far as I know, most wealthy parents in the US enroll their kids in the best schools money can buy not because of any love for learning, but rather because of the status that is afforded the families of those who attend such schools. And for those in the US with big money, social status is everything. Yes, yes, sounds like something an old-school European aristocrat would engage in, but individualism in America - with its philosophy of standing out from the crowd as much as possible - seems to be regarded as something absolute by most and there is the prevalent attitude of "Screw you, I got mine." As well, the "entitlement syndrome" occurs among the rich as well as the poor; the rich generally believe that, since they earned their money, they should have the right to spend every cent as they see fit - regardless of what social forces might prompt them to do otherwise.
In fact, as a country (we) Americans value independence so much that our parents even try earnestly to teach it to their children from the day they are born! This is one rationale behind the widespread (in the US) custom of letting newborns cry unattended; the child has to start learning how to be independent some time, so why not begin right away? Of course, any infant under 36 months of age is extremely dependent on his/her parents. Various medical studies confirm that the cry-it-out approach can, among other things, negatively affect the development of the child's brain tissue. This is most likely where learning disabilities get their start.
In any society, mommy and daddy are the first ever teachers of any and every child. Chances are that if the parents themselves do not demonstrate any real interest in academic learning, neither will the children. It appears that these days most American parents expect the schools to take full responsibility for their children's education - at least the academic part. (This is especially true in households where both parents work outside of home.) Also, a modern American culture that is mainly anti-intellectual makes it worse; apparently those engaging in high intellectual achievement are considered to be as out of touch with the realities of the average American as those with lots of money and political connections. Finally, thanks to the commercialization of sports in the US, there are many who believe that going to university or trade school is not necessary when one can simply play professional sports and earn a good lump sum of money. Or go to acting school and become a rich Hollywood film actor.
So, how would all the above relate to Go? Well, Go can serve as an academic tool to assist students in understanding school subjects and even in applying a sophisticated model of problem solving to practical situations. In a nutshell, Go can teach a student to think. Other games, such as chess and mancala-type games such as the Malay congkak and the Central Asian toguz kumalak, can help cultivate intellectual ability when played on a regular basis, but Go takes this characteristic to the next level.
I have thought of Go being adopted as an elective school subject in US educational districts, but - with the drastic education budget cuts that has occurred in most of them over the past few years in the aftermath of the 2008 economic recession - it might be feasible only in schools located in middle class and upper class neighborhoods. Personally, though, I believe everyone, whether rich or poor, should have access to the game.
Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:40 pm
by Boidhre
In Ireland a school gets more money per pupil if it's in a disadvantaged area than if it's in a normal or wealthy area. (Private schooling is present but makes up a small percentage of the schooling).
Guess what, the disadvantaged areas still do very poorly academically compared to the others. It's usually not a money problem at its core.
Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:49 pm
by tekesta
daal wrote:I know the educations systems of Germany (16th) and the US (36th) fairly well, and my first hunch as the the cause of the difference is that the German kids simply have a greater workload, and yes, the German culture places more value on hard work than the American one. From what I have heard of the Asian school systems, the same hunch would apply.
If it is so that the "flawed" educational system is the cause of Western go weakness, I would suggest that it would be due to the effectiveness of improving at go through drills, a study method that rightly or wrongly, Western societies have by and large rejected as incompatible to their culture.
There are however disciplines where drills still play a role, such as music and athletics, where interestingly enough, the West has not fallen behind.
In athletics, drills and conditioning are important to instill proper form of technique in the athlete, so when the athlete gets out on the field to play, he/she can play to the highest level of ability, especially under pressure.
Go players are no different from outdoor athletes in this regard; constant training through replaying and study of pro games, puzzle solving, and playing actual games helps pros and strong amateurs to stay at the top of their game.
My guess is that Go is still, at least in the West, a game strongly associated with East Asia, a region famous for producing exceptionally talented intellectuals. As a game with strong intellectual connotations, it's not a very popular choice in societies where it is more important to attend to your friend's needs than to attend to any patriarch's desire for intellectual achievement in the family. In fact, this might explain why outdoor sports such as association football and basketball outstrip Go and other board games in popularity (apart from mass commercialization); follow the money! With the amount of money a star athlete or even average pro athlete earns in a year, how many friends and family can be helped out with their problems? (Knowledge does not pay bills. At least not directly.)
Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:57 pm
by Boidhre
tekesta wrote:My guess is that Go is still, at least in the West, a game strongly associated with East Asia, a region famous for producing exceptionally talented intellectuals. As a game with strong intellectual connotations, it's not a very popular choice in societies where it is more important to attend to your friend's needs than to attend to any patriarch's desire for intellectual achievement in the family. In fact, this might explain why outdoor sports such as association football and basketball outstrip Go and other board games in popularity (apart from mass commercialization); follow the money! With the amount of money a star athlete or even average pro athlete earns in a year, how many friends and family can be helped out with their problems? (Knowledge does not pay bills. At least not directly.)
Go in the West isn't strongly associated with anything. When I say I play go to people they go "what's that?" "The oriental game with black and white stones on the board." "Oh, I think I saw that in some movie once." It's unknown to a very large percentage of the people. Whilst almost everyone in my country would know what you mean by baseball but wouldn't have a bull's notion as to what the rules are, because it's not really played here on any medium scale. Activities are either totally unknown in a country, shoji in Ireland for instance, vaguely aware of, go, aware of but not familiar with, baseball, familiar with but may not play, chess, soccer, gaelic games etc. Most people in my country would have some idea about how chess works on a basic level, a rather large percentage could probably play a game with you (though very much at "30k level") but our chess clubs are *tiny*. The biggest night of the year in my city of 250,000 people is 40 people showing up (and that'd be everybody).
Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:56 pm
by xed_over
tekesta wrote:In any society, mommy and daddy are the first ever teachers of any and every child. Chances are that if the parents themselves do not demonstrate any real interest in academic learning, neither will the children. It appears that these days most American parents expect the schools to take full responsibility for their children's education - at least the academic part.
The problem in the US is not the schools, its the parents. We no longer (if we ever did) believe in disciplining our children, and we wait years to let someone else educate them. By the time our kids start pre-school, same-aged kids in other countries are already becoming expertly skilled in various areas.
Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:40 pm
by lemmata
John Fairbairn wrote:but maybe the go education system here is flawed as well.
Could you tell us what you mean by "go education system here"? The topic seems interesting, but I am not sure if the replies are addressing the point you wanted to discuss.
Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:40 pm
by snorri
macelee wrote:I totally agree with Kirby's explanation. Yesterday there was a BBC Radio 4 journalist visiting Korea and reported exactly the same situation - it is quite normal for high-school-age students to spend 14 hours a day studying. Same happen in many parts of China.
I guess those are different kids than the ones spending 14 hours a day playing StarCraft...
Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:48 pm
by paK0
snorri wrote:macelee wrote:I totally agree with Kirby's explanation. Yesterday there was a BBC Radio 4 journalist visiting Korea and reported exactly the same situation - it is quite normal for high-school-age students to spend 14 hours a day studying. Same happen in many parts of China.
I guess those are different kids than the ones spending 14 hours a day playing StarCraft...
Probably, but even then they study in "their field" 14 hours a day^^
Re: Pisa tests - a template for go?
Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:50 am
by SoDesuNe
snorri wrote:I guess those are different kids than the ones spending 14 hours a day playing StarCraft...
It's just the other side of the coin, I think. You can't expect children to devote 14 hours a day to an abstract future scenario without forcing a fair number of them to flee into other realms. Playing Starcraft is for some far more enjoyable than studying something they are just told to do and like Go they can make money with it, if they are good enough.
In the end this might show some remaining sparks of individual pursuit.