Life In 19x19

OK, I won't argue with the pros you guys invoked. Move 8 is good. ( It just feels wrong to me. )

In that case, where did it go wrong? How did we get to a position only 23 moves into the game, in which most everybody agrees that 23 is good, but nobody really knows how to answer it?

Should white have played a joseki in the lower left that gives him the outside?

Joaz Banbeck wrote:In that case, where did it go wrong? How did we get to a position only 23 moves into the game, in which most everybody agrees that 23 is good, but nobody really knows how to answer it?

We agree the invasion is good? I and Bill Spight think it's too early, and that thus the best way to answer it is to not answer it. But if we accept there is a problem in my position (which I think there is, just black exploited it too early) then I think playing move 12 low at f3 instead of high at f4 as I, Dusk Eagle and your tewari #1 suggest is probably the way to fix it.

This is a busy day, and I'm posting without reading. Apologies to all.

http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/29261

This is a relevant game record. The framework on the right is different and that's not a small difference. Locally, what I gather is that h3 was probably too soon and too passive. I think white should still respond to it at f3 and keep her stones connected and healthy.

So move 24, white descends at F3, then black tenuki. It seems like white has fixed the aji in his corner and benefits from blacks premature invasion.

I think it's hard to see the merit of allowing black h5 until he allows white to get n6. Black 29 at n6 himself? After probing white at e3, I think it's a possibility. I don't see a positive attack for white in this situation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$cm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . . O . . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . b . . . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A and B are both huge in terms of white's territory and make it easy for black to survive. IMO.

emerus wrote:http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/29261

This is a relevant game record. The framework on the right is different and that's not a small difference. Locally, what I gather is that h3 was probably too soon and too passive.

Thanks! Too new for my GoGoD. The right and top sides are a bit different, but notwithstanding that I think Yoda playing c14 before h3 can teach us that approaching there is bigger than invading.

emerus wrote:I think white should still respond to it at f3 and keep her stones connected and healthy.

Don't quite understand this though: f3 doesn't keep white connected as black can later jump and split at h5.

emerus wrote:So move 24, white descends at F3, then black tenuki. It seems like white has fixed the aji in his corner and benefits from blacks premature invasion.

I disagree this exchange helps white: I think it is good for black. I think there is a good tewari argument for this: imagine white plays f4 at f3 initially (a perfectly good move, maybe even a better move) and then we have the same sequence. Then if black invades at h3 (a good move locally) white will certainly not answer at the bizarre f4, but h4 (or something else sensible).

emerus wrote:I think it's hard to see the merit of allowing black h5 until he allows white to get n6.

allowing -> playing, until -> if? Then yes I agree.

emerus wrote: Black 29 at n6 himself? After probing white at e3, I think it's a possibility. I don't see a positive attack for white in this situation.

Interesting idea, it does seem to be a key point doesn't it. It's strange, in the game I expected black 31 at j6 as he played. Despite being many thousands of miles apart, we thought the same things about our game whilst observers here had some different ideas (of course by posting as a problem here people maybe think more). White at j6 after black 31 at n6 instead isn't really a good seal, and black can still just live inside like the game.

Looking at the pro game, the k3 block and then g5 counter atari is a nice tesuji to stop black's encroachment on the lower side. If white just plays k3 as the j4 solid connection then black's slide to l2 is rather painful I thought. But in my game black hadn't yet made the e3 e4 exchange so if I played the h4 attach in answer to the invasion then the k3 and g5 technique has a problem as shown below. Could it be the e3 peep is aji keshi because of this? I don't presume to say Yoda Norimoto 9p made a mistake (and I know in this joseki Go Seigen has recommended the peep immediately after the c5 attachment as then white can't resist with block to either side or else black plays b5 hane, b4 block, d5 atari; but if you peep after completing the joseki maybe white can choose another answer) but this downside of the early peep does seem quite relevant in this particular position with k4 and the expected invasion at h3 later.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$cm27 g5 counter atari troubles if no e3 peep
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 9 6 7 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O 5 O 3 O . . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X 1 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now white takes the ko and black can either e4 to cut through white (though as white gets super thick to the right maybe it's not so bad for him, or fight the ko if he has threats. Then if white connects at g6 after recapture breaking through at e4 works better.