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58. Kie (1d) vs. k43r (1k)

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=966

Page 2 of 7

Move 19

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:23 am
by k43r
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


First is good to bump - it secures corner, makes him harder to make eys and make him heavier.

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[go]$$cW
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It's dream.

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[go]$$cW
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think white shoudl treat his initial kakari as a light stone and extend 3 spaces from it, than i will hane and he will secure with either stretch or 2-space extension.

Re: 58. Kie (1d) vs. k43r (1k)

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:05 am
by Kie
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cW
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Aiming at the aji and extension.

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[go]$$cW
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Move 21

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:31 am
by k43r
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cW
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 58. Kie (1d) vs. k43r (1k)

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:48 am
by daniel_the_smith
Did k43r forget about r15? Pros always play r13 or r14 in my database.

Re: 58. Kie (1d) vs. k43r (1k)

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:54 am
by Aphelion
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cW
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O B X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I wonder, would this empty triangle be good here?

Re: 58. Kie (1d) vs. k43r (1k)

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:54 am
by Numsgil
Kie wrote:
I suggest this sequence:

(Either way, I will keep move :w1: here.)

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[go]$$W
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . 3 O 1 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . 2 X 6 . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I will approach some corner after, the kobayashi was prevented and the result should be ok for both at this point.

Not really for players:
So I've been studying Contact Fights which suggests (as an advanced level concern) that you should play an "interrupt" (some other sente sequence) to clarify which choice you should make when playing out a joseki with a choice in it. I don't think there's much choice in this joseki, but is playing out this joseki straight like this optimal or would it be good to play it piecemeal? White gets sente and center/side facing influence, so I don't think white minds playing it out straight (a strong wall like this is maximally effective this early in the game). But maybe black should initiate the invasion then play some other moves up top to limit the usefulness of white's coming thickness along the side. Or hold off on the 3-3 invasion just yet?

Re: 58. Kie (1d) vs. k43r (1k)

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:40 am
by daniel_the_smith
@Numsgil:

I don't think either player wants to tenuki once that joseki has been initiated.


@Aphelion
It's ugly and it allows white better endgame than r13/14.

Personally I think I would play r14; then white has to choose between stabilizing the two stones or defending against the invasion.

Re: 58. Kie (1d) vs. k43r (1k)

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:22 am
by Kie
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Cut first, think later!

Actually, I usually try to find a "most resistance variation" from black in order to get some idea about worst-case-scenarios. I usually like to drag out games and slowly wear my opponent down, so I dislike losing games early and thus try to avoid disaster whenever possible. It doesn't always work but hope lives on.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . a b . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X 4 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . 2 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Can (9) be played at (a) or (b), if so, then this variation is quite good for white. Either way, white should be more or less ok here.

Re: 58. Kie (1d) vs. k43r (1k)

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:50 am
by k43r
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Woah, i opened several malkoich games and as always i began to read all comments. I clicked "show" and than fast thought came to my mind. "IS IT MY GAME!?!!?". IT wasn't, but now I need to be more carefull.

Re: 58. Kie (1d) vs. k43r (1k)

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:57 am
by Kie
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O W X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 58. Kie (1d) vs. k43r (1k)

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:07 pm
by k43r
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X B . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White strongest move is S15 and then I am screwed. I can live in gote in corner >_> I think I will sacrifice corner take outside and sente. I don't know why i had not considered W:s15 before >_>
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O O X 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

One possibility
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . 6 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O O X 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Both are bad... :sad: I'll decide after next 3 moves. It's needs very much reading

Re: 58. Kie (1d) vs. k43r (1k)

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:15 pm
by Kie
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'll stick with the plan. Not sure what black can do to get a good result here.

If it goes like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 8 4 5 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . c . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O O X . b |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X O 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The black stones on the outside are more or less useless and black's corner territory is not that impressive. White made points on the right and the top group is not in any danger.

Re: 58. Kie (1d) vs. k43r (1k)

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:54 pm
by Dusk Eagle
Numsgil:
So I've been studying Contact Fights which suggests (as an advanced level concern) that you should play an "interrupt" (some other sente sequence) to clarify which choice you should make when playing out a joseki with a choice in it. I don't think there's much choice in this joseki, but is playing out this joseki straight like this optimal or would it be good to play it piecemeal? White gets sente and center/side facing influence, so I don't think white minds playing it out straight (a strong wall like this is maximally effective this early in the game). But maybe black should initiate the invasion then play some other moves up top to limit the usefulness of white's coming thickness along the side. Or hold off on the 3-3 invasion just yet?

The thing is, once black has gone into the 3-3 point, neither player can afford to leave the area. Most joseki offer at least some degree of freedom, both variation-wise and tenuki-wise, but after black invades at 3-3 and white chooses to block this way, there really aren't any possible variations - every move is critical.

Also, white's wall can often end up unstable later in the game. I personally do not think it is too intimidating.

Re: 58. Kie (1d) vs. k43r (1k)

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:15 pm
by fwiffo
@Numsigil:
To add a few things about that joseki - there are basically two reasons why you'd want to tenuki. 1) There is a really big sente move elsewhere, and/or 2) You want to see how your opponent responds before choosing what to do with the pincered stone.

In either of those cases, the only time you'd want to tenuki is immediately after white plays the pincer and before you jump in the corner. At that point your investment is at its smallest, so you can treat your approach stone lightly if white does not respond to your tenuki (or responds in some way that somehow makes the original approach stone unimportant).

Also, after you've jumped into the corner, you no longer have a choice of direction. You're committed, and you've made an investment. Only white gets to pick a direction at that point. Before jumping in, you have several other options - jumping up, making a second approach to change direction, etc.

And I agree that the usefulness of white's wall is a lot smaller than it looks. I can't count how many games I've played that joseki in (from either side) where the "wall" turns into a weak, heavy group or even dies. Black, on the other hand, has a 100% alive group and solid territory. White ostensibly gets sente, but really, the wall needs another move eventually to settle it (e.g. an extension) because of the aji of the outside stone. He can't go and launch a strong attack right away or anything.

Re: 58. Kie (1d) vs. k43r (1k)

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:16 am
by k43r
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Just for sake of being consistent. Will write var at next move.
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