Life In 19x19

10 game match as a name also has the problem that there quite probably won't be 10 games, as the match will be abandoned once one player wins 6 games. In the jubangos of old didn't they usually keep playing, though sometimes they would abandon if it was too embarrassing to get beaten down to handicap? So I propose the accurate and catchy "Lee vs Gu at least six game match".

Uberdude wrote:I propose the accurate and catchy "Lee vs Gu at least six game match".

So you're predicting that Lee Sedol wins all the games? I'll bet you can get great odds for that!

Let's face it! Neither Lee Sedol nor Gu Li are the best of business anymore, they're past their prime. It should be like it was in Chess up to 20 years ago: a candidate tournament of ALL top players from CHN, KOR, JPN, US, EUR, ... and the best two play a series like they do now with the winner gettin a million bucks.

The series between Sedol and Li is like one of those box match-up's of washed up former stars that still want to generate some revenue. I rather wanna see the best of the best clashing it out, not the most (in)famous.

John Fairbairn wrote:
White 8 (kosumitsuke) was tried once before, by Kimu Sujun in Japan in 2011. Otherwise White has favoured making a Chinese shimari here.

White 8 surprised me, didn't Gu know there was an article in Sensei's library that clearly stated a kick without a pincher is not joseki.

badukJr wrote:

trout wrote:In China, 10 games match was played quite often long before 10 games match during 1930-1950 in japan.

10 game match was popular in Japan way before 1930, sorry.

As opposed to the games of blood and tears, or the match between Fan Xiping and Shi Ding'an?

Uberdude wrote:10 game match as a name also has the problem that there quite probably won't be 10 games, as the match will be abandoned once one player wins 6 games. In the jubangos of old didn't they usually keep playing, though sometimes they would abandon if it was too embarrassing to get beaten down to handicap? So I propose the accurate and catchy "Lee vs Gu at least six game match".

Here in the colonies we say a "best-of-ten-game match".

Frankly, what's wrong with calling it a match and being done with it? It's not as if anyone is going to be confused by that 20 game match they played a few years ago.

Pippen wrote:Let's face it! Neither Lee Sedol nor Gu Li are the best of business anymore, they're past their prime. It should be like it was in Chess up to 20 years ago: a candidate tournament of ALL top players from CHN, KOR, JPN, US, EUR, ... and the best two play a series like they do now with the winner gettin a million bucks.

The series between Sedol and Li is like one of those box match-up's of washed up former stars that still want to generate some revenue. I rather wanna see the best of the best clashing it out, not the most (in)famous.

Washed up former stars?

Lee Sedol is ranked #3 in Korea and Gu Li is ranked #4 in China.

The reason why they don't do a million dollar huge tournament instead is that the skill level between all the top pros is so thin that the sponsors don't want a final between two young kids who just got hot at the right time, they want to sponsor a huge event with two of the best players over the past fifteen years.

I like this format, and it won't work for a lot of players, but I think it's great for the game of Go.

oren wrote:Washed up former stars?

Lee Sedol is ranked #3 in Korea and Gu Li is ranked #4 in China.

To expand on this; both of them won a tournament this month against strong competition.

Past their prime? Maybe, or maybe the new generation is just stronger.
Washed up? No way. (makes me think Led Zeppelin winning a Grammy)

They get this match because they have been at the top of the Go world unlike any other pair of players in recent history (Do any others come to mind?) They have devout followings and many fans who want to see an epic clash between these two once and for all.

Almost every ten-game or higher match in Japan has been played with the uchikomi rule, although the precise point at which the handicap changes has varied over time. "Jubango" is therefore heavily associated with this rule. The risk of losing face as well as the match, by being beaten down a handicap, has always added a quasi-spiritual aura to such matches. The sublunary Yi-Gu match is not of this type. Differentiation would be useful.

Ten-game matches were never common in China, and arguably have never existed. Go players there were too peripatetic to indulge in long matches often. The designation of the Shi-Fan match (1739) as ten games, admittedly still used, came retrospectively from a later collector, Deng Yuanhui, who had ten games at the time. An 11th game is now known and some argue that 13 games were played. "Blood and tears" also has 11 games and there is no record that it was intended as a match - the series just turned out to be that long.

The earliest known ten-game match was 1706, in Japan. The longest matches have been sanjubango and nijuichibango. Junibango have also been tried. That would have made more sense for Yi-Gu, perhaps.

Hello,
well personally, I don't think giving some special meaning to the word 'jubango' is necessary. If its Chinese character form is 十番棋, it would be read as sipbeon-gi (ship-bun-ghee) in Korean by the way, and it simply means 'ten times go (game)'. In English, the word 'jubango' may have a foreign and a somewhat special impression, but by reading the same word in the Korean way with a similar difference between 'technology' and 'technologie' while I hope you understand, up to sipbeon (juban) is a common way to say ten times, and gi (go) is used in making Chinese root compound words to mean baduk, similar to using 'bio' to mean 'life'. Once again to clarify my point, 'jubango' is 'ten times go', and anything more I would regard as optional.

There was a 60 game match arranged between Honinbo Doetsu (7 dan) and Yasui Sanchi (9 dan) in 1668, when Doetsu objected to Sanchi's appointment to Meijin Godokoro. It was not an even match. Given the ostensible dan difference Doetsu started off taking Black with no komi. If Doetsu had lost he would have been exiled!

After 16 games Doetsu put Sanchi down to sen-ai-sen (BWB). (Edit: Sanchi to play WBW, I mean.) Only 20 games were played.

See http://senseis.xmp.net/?Sogo and http://mignon.ddo.jp/assembly/mignon/go ... etu01.html

skydyr wrote:Frankly, what's wrong with calling it a match and being done with it? It's not as if anyone is going to be confused by that 20 game match they played a few years ago.

Because it ain't just a match. It is, as far as I know, the biggest ten game match that has taken place in my lifetime between two of the most dominant players of the last decade. This is something that I wake up at 4 a.m. to watch and although I can accept that it isn't a jubango in that it is not about forcing the opponent to a higher handicap, "ten game match" just doesn't have much zing to it. I see this match as belonging to the tradition of great ten game go battles, and that tradition is mostly full of jubangos. If this match is sub-lunary, its still pretty high up there.

oren wrote:

Pippen wrote:Let's face it! Neither Lee Sedol nor Gu Li are the best of business anymore, they're past their prime. It should be like it was in Chess up to 20 years ago: a candidate tournament of ALL top players from CHN, KOR, JPN, US, EUR, ... and the best two play a series like they do now with the winner gettin a million bucks.

The series between Sedol and Li is like one of those box match-up's of washed up former stars that still want to generate some revenue. I rather wanna see the best of the best clashing it out, not the most (in)famous.

Washed up former stars?

Lee Sedol is ranked #3 in Korea and Gu Li is ranked #4 in China.

The reason why they don't do a million dollar huge tournament instead is that the skill level between all the top pros is so thin that the sponsors don't want a final between two young kids who just got hot at the right time, they want to sponsor a huge event with two of the best players over the past fifteen years.

I like this format, and it won't work for a lot of players, but I think it's great for the game of Go.

I too think this is fantastic for go. "Washed up former stars" is one of the most laughable comments I have heard on any subject in a LONG time!

DrQuantum wrote:I too think this is fantastic for go. "Washed up former stars" is one of the most laughable comments I have heard on any subject in a LONG time!

They are not the best in business anymore. It is just a rumble to promote whoever sponsors this event, using famous names. They could have also taken Chikun vs. Naoki, but the japanese market is obviously not so important^^. It's still a great match-up, don't get me wrong, but it's not an inofficial "boss-fight" or "world-championship". That's my point and that'd be my wish: to end all these multiple tournaments and make it one-dimensional towards a championship to determine the best Go player in the world. I am almost sure neither Sedol nor Li would be even candidates for a finale in such a system.