Life In 19x19

yoyoma wrote:

walleye wrote:I'm just wondering why there is no such option at all. I reckon people can decide on their own whether they want to use this feature or not.

Because I do not want to play on a Go server that has over 1000 options for me to wade through.

I'm struggling to discover your point. It is just one extra option and it will certainly be set to some default value. No need to wade through anything.

walleye wrote:... What is so hugely bad about it? ... I don't know if hiding or showing your opponent's clock can give you any competitive advantage. I wasn't thinking about that at all. I just think that with the clock hidden the game will be a bit more like a casual club game. Obviously, you need to see your own clock, but that's it.

It seems to me that the least controversial way to test this would be a button that allows you to choose not to see your opponent's clock rather than one that allows you to prevent your opponent seeing your clock. I would not mind leaving that choice to each player. On the other hand, deciding to hide your clock from your opponent certainly smells like a try for an advantage.

Normally, as long as a player can see his own clock and knows when the game has started, it is a matter of simple subtraction to "see" opponent's clock as well.

walleye wrote:I don't really need to see my opponent's clock.
there should be an option to hide your clock.

oren wrote:It doesn't prevent you from knowing your opponent's time which the original poster wanted.

The OP wants two, independent, features:

1. Option to not see his opponent's clock.
2. Option to prevent his opponent from seeing his clock.

The ING clocks provide (1), but not (2). -- by default,
you do NOT see your opponent's clock. You have to decide to see it, and press a button, to see it.
Otherwise you don't see it. So if you never press the button, you never see the opponent's clock.

So they in fact prevent you from knowing your opponent's time by default.

walleye wrote:

oren wrote:Disagree. Time remaining should not be a hidden part of the game.

Why not? It's up to me how I use my time. Why do I have to share that info with my opponent.

It's up to you how you use your time but it's also up to your opponent to make use of the way you used it (besides, even if you hide your clock, he can still know how much time you've left as stated above).

If you have a winning position at the end of the fuseki/chuban but spent all your time gaining it, then your opponent (if he has played faster) is totally right in making use of the fact that you have little time left.

I think that if clocks are used they should be visible. The only other coherent option seems not to play with clocks.

Shenoute wrote:

walleye wrote:

oren wrote:Disagree. Time remaining should not be a hidden part of the game.

Why not? It's up to me how I use my time. Why do I have to share that info with my opponent.

It's up to you how you use your time but it's also up to your opponent to make use of the way you used it (besides, even if you hide your clock, he can still know how much time you've left as stated above).

If you have a winning position at the end of the fuseki/chuban but spent all your time gaining it, then your opponent (if he has played faster) is totally right in making use of the fact that you have little time left.

I think that if clocks are used they should be visible. The only other coherent option seems not to play with clocks.

Or both play with hidden clocks. In any case, I prefer the current situation. After all, it's exactly the same as in chess, and chess has a longer tradition of doing funny stuff (Fischer chess, monster chess, etc) and I've never seen clock hiding in there.

tj86430 wrote:Normally, as long as a player can see his own clock and knows when the game has started, it is a matter of simple subtraction to "see" opponent's clock as well.

Not really, all you could work out was whether they were in overtime, and not being able to see the clock you couldn't know how many overtime periods they had remaining. If you're using Fischer (some tournaments do) then you don't even get this much information and again the same applies to Canadian.

SmoothOper wrote:Seems like a hugely bad idea. For the most part, the function of the clock is to ensure that players don't get upset waiting for the other player to play. By hiding that, you may get a little competitive advantage, however it sort of makes the purpose of having the clock less attractive in the first place. Just imagine not playing with a clock and not knowing when your opponent is going to make a move, it gets old, that is why they invented clocks in the first place. Though, I could see if you weren't efficient with time, or were one of those people that gamed the casual system of timing, taking inordinately long times just to try to get your opponent to lose interest...

We agree for once! It's also snowing in Florida, so it must be the end times.

Among other reasons, I am a parent, and it's a rare day when I can devote myself to playing Go without the thought that once this game is over, I will have something else that needs done. So I want to see how much time remains for both me and my opponent.

Boidhre wrote:

tj86430 wrote:Normally, as long as a player can see his own clock and knows when the game has started, it is a matter of simple subtraction to "see" opponent's clock as well.

Not really, all you could work out was whether they were in overtime, and not being able to see the clock you couldn't know how many overtime periods they had remaining. If you're using Fischer (some tournaments do) then you don't even get this much information and again the same applies to Canadian.

Correct, what I meant but failed to put in writing was normal time.

I indeed didn't think of Fischer or Canadian (I don't think I have ever played a game using them)

Anyhow, i agree with others who say that information about time remaining is part of the information of the game, and one shouldn't be able to hide it from one's opponent. If one chooses to not use the information himself, it's another matter.

walleye wrote:

yoyoma wrote:

walleye wrote:I'm just wondering why there is no such option at all. I reckon people can decide on their own whether they want to use this feature or not.

Because I do not want to play on a Go server that has over 1000 options for me to wade through.

I'm struggling to discover your point. It is just one extra option and it will certainly be set to some default value. No need to wade through anything.

My point is that I would place this option very low on a prioritized list of what options I would like to see in the software. Somewhere around 1000th place.

Every option is just one extra option. But there must be 1000s of other options like this one. If we add them all there will be 1000s of options. Even if the default is ok for me, when I look at the options list for something I will have to read that one, and all the others to find the one I want.

A couple things to note perhaps.

a) It may make sense to have an option "do not look at opponents time" as this is within your power to choose to do.

b) It may not make sense to have an option "do not allow my opponent to look at my time" because that is purely a matter of the timing technology used and there are no rules in place specifying the presence/absence of devices that would allow one to keep track of the opponents time (remember, even if the official game clock did not show you the opponents time another "clock" could)

I think I need to clarify what I mean by an option to hide the opponent's clock. What I mean is an option at the challenge or game creation stage where you specify that neither player will see the opponent's clock. It applies to both players who agree to use this feature before the game starts.

If that option was available, I would try it out for sure. Unlike some of you, I can't predict if I will like it or not. Although I don't think it will make much difference for me, as I don't usually look at my opponent's clock. I hardly ever look at my own clock, so I guess my time management must be ok. Some of you made an argument that time is part of the game that should not be hidden. It can certainly be used to inform one's strategy. But note that this aspect of the game is missing from casual games played at a club, besides setting some vague limit on how long a game can last. I myself would welcome an option on the servers that reduces the impact of the clock, besides setting some average pace.

It is interesting that most of the people took this issue personally rather than looking at it objectively.

I don't think anyone took it personally. I thought you were interested in finding out if people thought it was a good idea and some people disagreed with it. You always have the right to ignore your opponent's clock, so it does seem a bit pointless to me.

if you can't see their clock, then how do you know when they've lost on time?

oren wrote:I don't think anyone took it personally. I thought you were interested in finding out if people thought it was a good idea and some people disagreed with it. You always have the right to ignore your opponent's clock, so it does seem a bit pointless to me.

Well, people tell me why they wouldn't want to use that option. Not why they object to having that option on the server in the first place (except for yoyoma, but he is objecting to extra options in general). My idea was to have that option, not to make everyone use it. I understand you wouldn't care much for it if you never wanted to use it. But is that enough reason to oppose that option altogether? Especially if some other people wanted to use it. I get the vibe that this option should be dismissed outright, but it seems pretty harmless to me.