Life In 19x19

Uberdude wrote:The key thing you should do is count liberties

True, I should be more confident on my counting. fear is never a good friend...

EdLee wrote:After you've seen the above variations so far, you can now see that
your original wedge is a bad move -- bad instinct on your part -- W would not play there.

Thanks for the lesson, I think I've got it, I will now try the same on the 4th just to see the difference
I suppose I should try to build a kind of vocabulary of moves (I mean not just find their name on internet but really experience them) and start walking before running

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . 1 . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

to came back to the joseki,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . 2 . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

I really understand better and I'm now confident with it, it can't be cut.
For white, is at (a) a valid option too ? oh... but then black would enter at 3-3 and play the 3-3 invasion joseki instead right ?

oca wrote: to came back to the joseki,

$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . 2 . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . 2 . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

I really understand better and I'm now confident with it, it can't be cut.
For white, is at (a) a valid option too ? oh... but then black would enter at 3-3 and play the 3-3 invasion joseki instead right ?

Black can play the same joseki if white played at A. The difference is that at some point white will have to do something about the open skirt by making an extension or otherwise fixing it, making it somewhat gote, though it can be tenukied. In exchange, white has more strength in the center.

For homework, later in the game the position is here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Can white cut, and if so or not, what happens?

oca wrote:I tried that too but seems that white cannot save both and: in this variante when black plays

$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . 4 1 X W . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . 4 1 X W . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

The original question was whether W can cut the 2-space jump --
what does saving or have to do with this question ?
What does have to do with this question ?

oca wrote:But maybe I'm just too focused on saving stones...

Yes.

skydyr wrote:
For homework, later in the game the position is here:

$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Can white cut, and if so or not, what happens?

tha't's allreay hard for me ... let's try anyway and say "YES", white can cut.
may something like that... :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 7 2 8 , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X 5 1 X . Q . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 6 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

So close! You were doing great until the final move for B. In this problem, B is trying to connect some stones. Those stones count as being connected if B captures any potential W cutting stones. Other stones are irrelevant and do not need to be saved. Focus your attention on the main problem ....

oh... something like that ? is correct ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 7 2 . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X 5 1 X . Q . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 6 4 3 8 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

oca wrote:oh... something like that ? is correct ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 7 2 9 , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X 5 1 X . Q . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 6 4 3 8 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

I'm inclined to double atari like this.

Is that the only starting move for white, though?

skydyr wrote:...
Is that the only starting move for white, though?

I suppose white can try that too, I will try to see what I can do from here...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X 1 . X . O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

That is a fairly advanced (dan) shape with a number of potential attacks. For example, as below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . 1 X . . X . O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Edit: As proof that it's an advanced shape, that 1 above isn't right. See below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 X . . X . O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

There are a lot of moves for white, and in quite a few black can choose to give up one of the stones, so while it was a great question, it may not be the best situation for the you to study at the moment.

Actually, maybe the existence of those sequences in which black gives up a stone is EXACTLY the answer to the original question - in many cases stones that are further apart CAN be separated, but are still better than "safe" moves because they are more efficient and separating immediately is generally not good. So in addition to looking at how far you can play while still connected (which is extremely important), you should also look at how you would deal with moves that DO separate and get comfortable with the results.

The problem, of course, is that I can't think of a good example that is of appropriate difficulty. The below sequence is a well-known trick play, but does illustrate how being cut could result in a favourable outcome. Don't worry too much about the correctness of each individual move - can you tell who came out ahead?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Initial situation - white 1 invites cut at 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc 18 and a half points
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 O 1 2 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 3 X X 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 6 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 6 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 X 9 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 X X 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Conclusion
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 6 O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 8 O O O X 1 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O 7 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

illluck wrote:That is a fairly advanced (dan) shape with a number of potential attacks. For example, as below:

$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . 1 X . . X . O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . 1 X . . X . O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Edit: As proof that it's an advanced shape, that 1 above isn't right. See below:

$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 X . . X . O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 X . . X . O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

There are a lot of moves for white, and in quite a few black can choose to give up one of the stones, so while it was a great question, it may not be the best situation for the you to study at the moment.

I suppose I didn't make it clear originally, but I didn't mean for this to be a necessarily solvable exercise, so much as a springboard for thinking about reading. As you mentioned, there are a number of different ways to attack, depending on what white wants to do and the situation in the rest of the board, as well as a number of different strategies for black to employ. It's a fairly common situation, though, so it seems apropos to consider that white has options and things can be done.

skydyr wrote: I suppose I didn't make it clear originally, but I didn't mean for this to be a necessarily solvable exercise, so much as a springboard for thinking about reading. As you mentioned, there are a number of different ways to attack, depending on what white wants to do and the situation in the rest of the board, as well as a number of different strategies for black to employ. It's a fairly common situation, though, so it seems apropos to consider that white has options and things can be done.

Agreed. It's definitely a good exercise.

As a side note, while the sequence that was proposed does connect, white has a stronger attack which makes it hard for black:
So I think black should respond as below instead:

illluck wrote:

$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . 1 X O O X X O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O a O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . 1 X O O X X O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O a O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

oh... that's a nice one... I first thought that black would kill all the white stones by forcing white to fill at "a"
but when I tried to do that, I didnt succeded... and white can make two eyes what ever I tried with black.

illluck wrote:That is a fairly advanced (dan) shape with a number of potential attacks.
Edit: As proof that it's an advanced shape, that 1 above isn't right. See below:

...it may not be the best situation for the you to study at the moment.

Agreed.

illluck wrote:can you tell who came out ahead?

$$W Conclusion
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 6 O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 8 O O O X 1 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O 7 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Conclusion
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 6 O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 8 O O O X 1 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O 7 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

• This is a 30-move sequence.
• You are asking a beginner to evaluate territory versus potential (after a 30-move sequence !!) ??
• When he is still struggling with basic ataris and liberties !

Have you completely forgotten what it was like when you were at oca's current level (~17k) ???

( Actually, some young children Go students really enjoy "trick" plays like this one.
So, it's fun to get exposure to it, for cultural purposes. But it's also important to think back
and try to remember what your reading ability was when you were still a beginner. )