Life In 19x19

The moves I'm referring to are minus 1 and minus 3 in the diagram.

Shaddy wrote:The moves I'm referring to are minus 1 and minus 3 in the diagram.

I don't understand. Can u give a diagram or explain? What is "minus 1"?

minus 1 is the integer one less than 0, it is the solution of x + 1 = 0. So move minus 1 is the move before move 0 which is the move before move 1, i.e. move -1 is the white approach and move -3 is the white split.

@uberdude: Thx for explaining.

@shaddy: I numbered the moves. I can see your point about 4 being a mistake, but I disagree and it's my style anyway. I rather lose with my Split-Fuseki than to win with some other - I am a Go-Fundamentalist^^. But am I correct that 6 is also considered a mistake in your book? And then of course I'm still interested what you would play for White with move 8 here: free corner or doing something to strengthen the 4-6 combo?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . 4 . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

There are other, less silly moves you could make to prevent frameworks from appearing. Why not play those?

To answer your question, I don't like 4, but after 5 it's not too bad if W takes the empty corner. After 6, I think W has to add the two knight's moves in your original diagram, leaving Black to take the empty corner.

Shaddy wrote:To answer your question, I don't like 4, but after 5 it's not too bad if W takes the empty corner. After 6, I think W has to add the two knight's moves in your original diagram, leaving Black to take the empty corner.

Interesting question about fuseki theory. 6 in the corner let's 4 all alone and weak, while 4 & 6 (like in the diagram) have a light connection, so I'd play 8 in the corner and would feel better with 4 & 6 than if I play 6 in the corner and 4 gets baseless. Hopefully other strong players will give their opinion too.

Pippen wrote:

Shaddy wrote:To answer your question, I don't like 4, but after 5 it's not too bad if W takes the empty corner. After 6, I think W has to add the two knight's moves in your original diagram, leaving Black to take the empty corner.

Interesting question about fuseki theory. 6 in the corner let's 4 all alone and weak, while 4 & 6 (like in the diagram) have a light connection, so I'd play 8 in the corner and would feel better with 4 & 6 than if I play 6 in the corner and 4 gets baseless. Hopefully other strong players will give their opinion too.

I think you are again incorrectly describing things as light (and by implication not bad). I wouldn't usually refer to a connection as light (though I might describe say a 2 point jump as a light jump but that's more describing the status of the group rather than the strength of the connection) but as strong/weak. Stones/groups might be light. In your example I would say 4 and 6 are not connected: if black invades he splits them and they can't connect. 6 is somewhat light in that you can sacrifice it reasonably effectively by jumping into the corner, 4 is not light as there is no good way to sacrifice it and the exchange of it for giving black a shimari is likely to become a bad one.

The big problem with playing 6 is that black answered it by playing 7. That means you can no longer approach from the right side and your potential there is severely reduced. Likewise your potential for a moyo on the lower side is also reduced as it can no longer extend well up the right side for a two-dimensional growth. By playing 6 you are saying you want to do something productive on the top side, and are happy to let black lay first claim on the (upper-) right side. If you played the empty corner for 4 and black played 5 to make the Chinese opening or similar, (which seems to be the framework you are so scared of which prompts your desire to split) then you would not likely not want to approach with 6 on the inside of the top right corner, but from the right side instead.

If you play the empty corner for 6 after splitting with 4 (and black makes the shimari) then if black pincers 4 white should probably approach the top right with 8 from the right side again and sacrifice 4 for now (though it's still kinda dumb) and try to make black capture it in an overconcentrated way whilst white focuses on developing the right and lower sides.

Pippen wrote:@uberdude: Thx for explaining.

@shaddy: I numbered the moves. I can see your point about 4 being a mistake, but I disagree and it's my style anyway. I rather lose with my Split-Fuseki than to win with some other - I am a Go-Fundamentalist^^. But am I correct that 6 is also considered a mistake in your book? And then of course I'm still interested what you would play for White with move 8 here: free corner or doing something to strengthen the 4-6 combo?

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . 4 . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . 4 . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

In the latest GoGoD (via SmartGo Kifu) there are 8,147 examples of the above position after 3. There are zero examples of 4 or its adjacent points so I am thinking that no book will cover it. Pros who want to split Black's position play an approach move in the upper left. Those who are less concerned about it play in the empty corner.

Go-fundamentalist may not be quite the right term here. How about self-confident, independent-thinking amateur instead?

Let's look at some variations. Here is the basic diagram:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

1. variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . O . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . 3 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

2. variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . 2 . . O . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

3. variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4 3 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . O 6 2 1 . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

For all three examples I'd say it's an even game. Or would u guys prefer one diagram over another for White/Black?

2 is better for Black (White should take the 3-3 instead of jumping), 3 is a disaster for White.

@shaddy: After rethinking I agree with you about the third variation. But the first two are OK for White. In the first one White has sente, no weak group - even. In the second one Black has a potentially weak group on the right side he has to consider if he choses the empty corner, White is safe everywhere - even again. Do you agree?

1. variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . O . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . 3 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

2. variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . 2 . . O . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I'm not sure if variation 1 is even, to me black is slack to answer at 3-3 and let white make a nice shape, but in exchange he got sente to get the last corner which is good. Net effect unsure. If white slides and I don't 3-3 I would probably play the one not two space pincer.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W or maybe 4 directly at 6
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . 2 . O 4 . 3 . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

You did set 2 one point further, so in that case I'd play like this where a and b seem miai:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . 2 . O . . a . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , b . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I don't think I can play like this with 2 one point to the left like in my original 2. variation.

Here is a game I lost. I have two questions:

1. Where was my first significant mistake early in the game (and what move should I have played instead)?
2. Looking before move 124...was the game still winnable for me?

1) r13 but personally I don't like r14 and would m3 particularly as d6 means you have the ladder.