Teamovitch #1

Post by **Jordus** » Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:51 pm

@ Joaz and teammates

*EDIT*

Redundant · Post by **Redundant** » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:41 pm

Suggestion

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:46 am

@Red:

To observers:

I actually quite like the jump out Red suggested, however, I think I prefer the press. There is a joseki that involves the near tight pincer where Black pushes and cuts, that goes a bit like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 Move 13 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 9 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 4 O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . 2 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think White may make some good use ofo this, and I'm happy with this sort of direction. However, the pincer is far, and I don't know if it still works:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 Move 13 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 9 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 4 O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . 2 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now "a" doesn't work for Black, as White can cut immediately, and will get a fabulous result. "b" looks fine, but obviously White takes "a" and Black is on the run. What's more,

has so much fantastic aji, I cannot see Black protecting both the bottom and right. I'll be interested to see what push and cut lines redundant has considered

EDIT: Hmmm, maybe I still prefer the O3 lines more than the press, this looks crazy complicated for both sides - will have a look at the jump out in more detail soon as well

Redundant · Post by **Redundant** » Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:03 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm13 Move 13 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 5 1 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And they have much more to worry about than we do. They have to take care of their floating group, their corner group, and we can separate their pincer stone from the floating group. It's two weak groups for us to three for them.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:58 am

My wife was curious about why I have been spending so much time studying go positions recently. So I explained this to her. She knows what normal go is, and Malkovich, but didn't know what teamovich was. When I explained it to her, she giggled and said: "Oh, it is like American politics - you get to chose from the nominated, not from the best."

I replied that there had not been any divergence yet. For our team, at least.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:51 pm

@red and team:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 5 1 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This line gives me the willies. The marked Black stone is really upsetting to me if we allow

- how do we continue from here? (next 6 moves or so). This would be awesome if we don't die horribly, but I have a feeling we will unless I've misread from this point on

To observers:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 3 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . X O O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 1 O X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . a . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This to me is the logical continuation, and it just looks a bit too thin for White to me - all the shape-ish followups at the "a" points seem locally ok, but unless White can play at least two of them at once, I see Black winning the local fight somewhere in a big way. I see the original 5-3 stone group dying, and with it, Black gets a truly stupendous result. Either my variation, or playing O3 next, both seem preferable to me still.

Shaddy · Post by **Shaddy** » Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:56 pm

observers only.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 5 1 2 . 7 . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Nothing to be afraid of.

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:13 am

White talk:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm13 Move 13 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . a . . . . B . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . b . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a: Helps to make an approach in the top left unappealing for black, serves as an extension if we get the enclosure, and makes moves like M17 sente. We REALLY don't want black to spread across the top, so if we don't take this move, we really want our alternate sequence to end in sente so we can take something up top anyways.

c: If we jump out, black defends below, then we cap mid-right stone. Alternatively, we can shoulder-hit it to try to seal it in to die. However, there is a lot of space around here, so I'm not confident that we can ensure a kill, much less a profitable one. See diagram below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm13 Move 13 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . 2 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If we take 'a', black has the shoulder hit at the star point. If we take 'b', black can peep below, in addition to standing and fighting their way out.

Taisha

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm13 Move 13 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 2 O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 1 4 3 5 . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 6 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If black jumps out to 'a', I think their stones are too weak to make an attack severe. That said, I'm not sure exactly how much we would get for this. Unfortunately, black gets most of the choices in the taisha, so I doubt we can expect much better than this. It's not horrible or anything, but we don't have a really strong continuation from here.

I'm going to think about these options more and look for other options, but I wanted to post my thoughts so far, so maybe Red and TJ can point out errors in my thinking. I am happy that we have sente, just trying to take my time in deciding where to spend it.

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:52 pm

White discussion, and move nomination:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . B . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . 5 O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 8 4 . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . 2 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What I'm looking at currently is something like this. I've investigated some of the possibilities (the post I was working on to demonstrate failed and was deleted. Dumb internet), and found that we cannot directly try to kill the lone stone at R8. However, we can pressure it a bit to get out. This diagram keeps fairly light shape for us in the bottom right, and reinforces the group higher up the right side. Importantly, it keeps threatening to seal in the right-side black group, which lets us keep sente to take the big point on the top. While our bottom right group is far from strong, it seems light and flexible enough to handle itself. If black peeps at it, for example, connecting threatens to attach below at R3. Notably, if 18 is at 20, it looks like we may be able to cut through the knight's move.

As for the other moves I was looking at, I feel like we don't really get enough for the taisha, since the pincer stone is close enough to threaten some of the results. It seems like it's playable, but that there's very little to make it actually desirable. So instead of playing complications just to be complicated, let's stick with the jump, which I can read better. As far as the top side, I'll feel a bit better if we handle this corner first, then take it if at all possible. The diagram above gets some in both areas, as well as getting us ahead in the battle for central thickness. While black has more actual territory, most of black's stones are low, with limited developmental potential, so I think we can be happy with a continuation like this.

Nomination: I suggest the jump to P5.

tj86430 · Post by **tj86430** » Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:43 am

White suggestion:

We already have two good suggestions how to continue fighting in the lower right corner, so I'm going to suggest something else, although a below is strangely appealing to me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . d . . . . . b . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , e . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . c . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Looking at the board there are two major empty areas, top center and bottom center. Therefore something around b and c seem good ideas. d is also a big point, but it seems smaller than the other two.

Choosing between b and c is not easy, but I nominate c, because if we play b and black takes c (or e), it will make invading the bottom much more difficult, and also indirectly harm R5, whereas c can help us launch an attack against Q3 later on. If black now plays somewhere around a to continue attacking R5, we will take another big point somewhere else and leave R5 as aji. If black extends towards c from one direction we will extend to the other. If black plays around b, we will have another decision whether to continue the fight in lower right or taking some other big point like d. Finally, if black plays around d, we will choose a suitable joseki there, but I'm not sure which one.

To sum up, my suggestion:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . W . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:11 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This game is getting more and more exciting

To teammates and observers:

I like the ideas behind each and every one of the suggestions this time. Red's lean and attack is finally properly supported by the ability to build a huge position on the right side, but I went against it because of the push and cut joseki variation. In the lean, Black gets to cut and create a fight - if we win and kill something (like the corner), it's a huge huge bonus for White. If we lose something, it's a huge huge bonus for Black. If everyone lives, it's unclear how the outcome will be, and also whether or not our top right group will have become weak. There are lots of weak cut groups, and it's hard to see the wood for the trees for me - red's crosscut variation is just so complicated, and leaves so many weaknesses for both sides - I don't want us to lose on a blunder.

Interestingly, one near joseki variation on that side that side that I thought was possibly playable:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 B W O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If we can rescue the aji on the bottom, I think this has potential, but again, it's complicated. As a result of all this, I went with Chew's move. It's simple, it's clear, and it doesn't leave White with weaknesses. It's also slack of Black to play on the 3rd line:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 2 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . a . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think we have to assume this, so if some thought can be put into how that affects things, and to whether or not we're going to get to play "a" or not, that would be good.

@ TJ: I really like the idea, but the placement I think is going to cause us too many problems:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . 1 . 2 . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

here is sente, and let's Black have the big attack going on in the lower right, something that feels the most urgent priority to deal with first. I agree it's nice to have the extensions in both directions (normally being good because, even though the opponent can force one of them in sente, they are miai), but here one of the forcing moves Black can play greatly helps Black in the big fight.

Interestingly, my personal choice was none of these, and I'm going to put it down now as it can't be played:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . 2 . 1 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

this is not tolerable by Black, so White can look for the opportunity to play on the bottom later. A standard sequence might look like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Move 16 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 1 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 B O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . c . , 3 . . | $$ | . . . . X . b . . 9 . . a W 4 X 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

makes miai of "a" and "b" to settle, although "c" could well be better than "a". It gives White the corner in sente, and makes Black's wall hard to use. Sure, we can't really attack that solitary stone now, but the corner cash plus lower edge stability feels like more than adequate compensation.

To observers only:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . e . . . . X . . a . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 5 O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 2 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . b . . . X c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There's some nasty aji here that we'll have to be very careful with. If I was more sure the press wouldn't get us killed, I'd have taken it, but I do that and die in a blaze of glory too often, so I'm trying something clearer. I'm disappointed no-one suggested the counter pincer, it seemed like an obvious move to me, even if it then got discounted

"a" through to "e" are all moves I'm keeping in mind. If people have much curiosity over any of them (as in, what am I thinking), do ask

Shaddy · Post by **Shaddy** » Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:48 am

An idea I had:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 5 O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . 3 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If black submits to the press, w can double hane over the two stones. If black pushes the other way in response to the shoulder hit, it will revert to a one space low pincer joseki which is favorable to white because r11 is perfectly placed.

Jedo · Post by **Jedo** » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:22 am

black suggestion

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 2 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There don't really seem to be too many other options here. If we pull out the pincer stone our corner gets enclosed which isn't really an option. Therefore the only choice is how to jump out. We don't want to jump low because then we will get pressed down easily.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 1 . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 2 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Assuming white just shuts down the pincer stone, we have sente to take some big moves.

Post by **Jordus** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:45 am

Black Internal Chat:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm Move - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think the most important move right now is to extend out the pincer stone at (a) or (b).... White does not necessarily have the corner on the next move.. besides we already own two corners and can easily invade a third still...Points wise, in the short term view, if we lose that corner it is a few more points lost then if we lose the side, However, in the long run, giving white the side hurts us more because of the huge influence over the center they achieve... So I think we need to prevent that.... at least that is what is going through my mind at the moment...

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:52 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 2 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

@Fwiffo:

@Jordus:

I agree with you that we would like to support the pincer stone. But corners are bigger than sides, so if we are indeed faced with the option of abandoning one or the other, we should take the corner. Taking the side ends up something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm15 One exemplary line $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O d . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . 0 7 8 . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . 6 4 2 b X a 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 c . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

True, we can live, but white can press us down so much that he becomes strong, and our pincer stone is caught between two groups that it cannot successfully threaten. It get transformed from a pincer to merely an invasion.
If we are going to have our pincer turned into an invasion, it would be better to do it like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 2 5 , 7 . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 6 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

By taking the corner first, we get more territory and access to the center.

Life In 19x19

Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

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Re: Teamovitch #1