[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoner Count: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . | $$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . | $$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . 4 . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X X X O X O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Reduce, reduce, reduce... Strengthen my group, as well!
Let's shrink black's territory to zero!
P.S. I played the last move I did kind of passive and solidly so that I would be free to reduce from this side. I could have tried to be more aggressive or take territory. But I still have that option for later.
Meanwhile, black territory to zero!
Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 2:28 pm
by Marcus
$$Bcm71 Prisoner Count: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . | $$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . | $$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X X X O X O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O 5 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . | $$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . | $$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . @ . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . X . . | $$ | . . . @ . . . . . X X X O X O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O 1 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:09 pm
by Marcus
Thinking time. How are you feeling about the game now, Kirby? It's definitely not the same game we were discussing earlier.
I have a few thoughts ...
$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . f . . . O O | $$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O X . | $$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X . X | $$ | . . . . d . . . X . . . . . X X X X . | $$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . a . O . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . c . . X X X O X O X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . f . . . O O | $$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O X . | $$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X . X | $$ | . . . . d . . . X . . . . . X X X X . | $$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . a . O . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . c . . X X X O X O X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So, lots of interesting points, some endgame and some not ... I think I'm going to try and evaluate the board, though ... maybe I'll count! Or, at least, count how much cash Kirby has already made off with.
$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | S S S S S . . . . . . . . . . S S S S | $$ | S S S S O O . . . . . . . . . S S O O | $$ | S S S . . X O O X X . . X O O O O X . | $$ | S S S O . X X X O , . . X . X O X . X | $$ | S S S . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . | $$ | S S . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . S S S | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , S S S | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . | $$ | S S S S . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | S S S O . . . . . X X X O X O X . X . | $$ | S S S . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . | $$ | S S S O . . . . . . . . . S S S O O S | $$ | S S S . . . . . . . . . . S S S S S S | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | S S S S S . . . . . . . . . . S S S S | $$ | S S S S O O . . . . . . . . . S S O O | $$ | S S S . . X O O X X . . X O O O O X . | $$ | S S S O . X X X O , . . X . X O X . X | $$ | S S S . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . | $$ | S S . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . S S S | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , S S S | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . | $$ | S S S S . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | S S S O . . . . . X X X O X O X . X . | $$ | S S S . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . | $$ | S S S O . . . . . . . . . S S S O O S | $$ | S S S . . . . . . . . . . S S S S S S | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
W has about 56 points in cash plus 6.5 komi. That's 62.5 points that I have to match ... and don't forget I'm assuming that I get to reduce as far as that 56 ... I haven't looked at potential ... gonna think hard here.
Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!
Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 3:27 am
by Kirby
EdLee wrote:Kirby,
Kirby wrote:But do you think that this was worth more than sente to break up his moyo?
At that time, you had at least 2 ways into the center, so maybe it was not so big:
$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . | $$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . | $$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . @ . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . X . . | $$ | . . . @ . . . . . X X X O X O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O 1 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------
[go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . | $$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . | $$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . @ . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . X . . | $$ | . . . @ . . . . . X X X O X O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O 1 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
That could be the case. It's hard for me to say for sure. Of course I agree that extending is better locally, unless I was absolutely sure of getting gote. In that case, maybe it would have been fine to do even this:
$$W $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X 2 X . . | $$ | . . . @ . . . . . X X X O X O X 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O 3 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------
[go]$$W $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X 2 X . . | $$ | . . . @ . . . . . X X X O X O X 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O 3 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
I think it really depends on how big sente was.
On that note, though, I do find that I tend to prefer locally suboptimal sequences if they result in sente for me.
It could be the case that I hate gote too much. I guess the only real way for me to get better at this would be to get better at comparing different parts of the board.
Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!
Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 3:29 am
by Kirby
I feel OK about the game, Marcus, as long as you agree not to get too many more points.
Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 4:27 am
by EdLee
Kirby,
I think either A or B, but not C.
Kirby wrote:maybe it would have been fine to do even this:
$$W Var C $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . O . . | $$. . . O X . X 2 X . . | $$. X X X O X O X 1 . . | $$. . X O O . O O 3 . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------
[go]$$W Var C $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . O . . | $$. . . O X . X 2 X . . | $$. X X X O X O X 1 . . | $$. . X O O . O O 3 . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------[/go]
$$W Var A $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . O . . | $$. . . O X . X . X . . | $$. X X X O X O X . . . | $$. . X O O . O O 1 . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------
[go]$$W Var A $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . O . . | $$. . . O X . X . X . . | $$. X X X O X O X . . . | $$. . X O O . O O 1 . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------[/go]
$$W Var B $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . O . . | $$. . . O X . X 2 X . . | $$. X X X O X O X 1 . . | $$. . X O O . O O . 3 . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------
[go]$$W Var B $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . O . . | $$. . . O X . X 2 X . . | $$. X X X O X O X 1 . . | $$. . X O O . O O . 3 . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------[/go]
Also, the difference between D and E (the game) is huge-- 20+ points??
$$W Var D: tenuki $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . O . . | $$. . . O X . X . X 3 . | $$. X X X O X O X . . . | $$. . X O O . O O 1 . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------
[go]$$W Var D: tenuki $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . O . . | $$. . . O X . X . X 3 . | $$. X X X O X O X . . . | $$. . X O O . O O 1 . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------[/go]
$$B Var E: The game $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . O . . | $$. . . O X . X X X . . | $$. X X X O X O X W 3 . | $$. . X O O . O O 1 . . | $$. . . . . . . . 2 4 . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------
[go]$$B Var E: The game $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . O . . | $$. . . O X . X X X . . | $$. X X X O X O X W 3 . | $$. . X O O . O O 1 . . | $$. . . . . . . . 2 4 . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------[/go]
nobi instead of 
atari:
tenuki