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115 - robinz v. 1986

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=3740

Page 11 of 31

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 5:36 pm
by ez4u
robinz wrote:
Yet another surprising move from MHO. I had trouble deciding between this simple capture and the cut at E6. Playing the former, I expect white to play at E6 to connect his groups, then I get sente to play elsewhere (M17, almost certainly). Whereas, playing E6 now, I would expect white to capture at A5 himself - then, as far as I can read I need to play another move in the corner (looks like the hane at E1 kills, to me), but then white needs B8 (or similar) to save his own left-hand group, and once again I have sente. So the only question is which of the following results I prefer:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm95 Prisoner Count :w1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . 5 . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . 4 . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . 1 . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | 2 X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm95 Prisoner Count :w1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . 3 . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . 2 . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | 1 X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


There's no question that in the latter, which I've now played, I have more points. But in the former, which I came very close to playing, white's groups are cut apart, so I could hope in the longer term to be able to put more pressure on his F2 group this way. In other words, it would be a sacrifice of certain short-term gain for a possibly greater long term one. I decided in the end to just take the instant cash though, as I wouldn't be that confident of making all that many gains in the other scenario, and it also gives black virtually no more sente moves (or ko threats) against the corner, when there would have been several in the other scenario. Plus, if I'm taking sente into the next phase of the game, I start to feel ahead for the first time for a long while in this game, so keeping things simple and grabbing points seems the best option :)


Note that the situation is a little more complex than robinz's reading indicates. If Black chooses the E6 cut now, it is not "necessarily" sente. The earlier marked kikashi allows White to live against Black's direct attempt to kill. After 1-10 below the marked stone is perfectly placed to give White a snapback...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . 5 X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . 1 4 W 7 . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | 2 3 O . 6 X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O 9 X 0 a . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | O . O X 8 . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


However, White barely survives. As a result, Black may be able to force White to live in another way that helps Black invade the lower side later, e.g. start with the hanging connection at "a". It would all depend on the evaluation of the alternatives if White plays away here.

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 6:28 pm
by EdLee
1986,
(For beginners also.) Your feeling is the jump :b1::
1986 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . X X X . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . X . . .
$$ | . O O . . . . . .
$$ | W B O X . . . . .
$$ | O O X O O O . . .
$$ | X X X O X O . . .
$$ | . . . X X . 1 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]
This is bad because after :w2: :b3:, B has all these false eyes and later,
many connect-and-dies ending with (a):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . X X X . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . X . . .
$$ | . O O . . . . . .
$$ | O . O X . . . . .
$$ | O O X O O O . . .
$$ | X X X O X O . 4 .
$$ | . . a X X 2 1 . .
$$ | . . . . C 3 C . .
$$ +------------------[/go]
The correct shape for B is the simple push :b1:, and W blocks with :w2:, leaving B with the aji of (b) and (c):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . X X X . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . X . . .
$$ | . O O . . . . . .
$$ | O . O X . . . . .
$$ | O O X O O O . . .
$$ | X X X O X O c . .
$$ | . . . X X 1 2 b .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 11:29 pm
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm96 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . 1 . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Yeah, I agree Apehlion my play was inconsistent
i wasn't completely focused on my game, but im back home
and i got more time to devote to my go again,

Ed lee wow i didn't think of that, i learn something new everyday
:)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm96 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . 1 3 5 . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . 2 4 X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm96 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 4 6 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . 1 . . . 2 . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . 9 8 . . . 3 . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm96 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 8 4 . 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X 3 1 . 2 . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 2:29 am
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm97 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . 1 . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


The surprises keep coming :shock: I guess 1986 wasn't happy with me keeping sente for a while, and decided on a mutual damage strategy. This does give me another of those tricky (and in this case seemingly close) decisions - to respond or not to respond?

In the end I went with "no", and accepted some mutual damage, for a variety of reasons. Firstly, I think I actually get a few more points from killing his 5 stones on the left than he does from killing my 2 in the upper left (which I think is all he can do, even with another move there) - although this is again close, and I may have misjudged it. Secondly, my centre group has been hanging around for a while in an almost-but-not-quite alive state, and therefore could have been vulnerable to some sort of attack. But not now - with his left group cut off, I'm sure I can win any capturing race that might develop, so I won't have to worry much about it anymore. And this makes me feel much more comfortable with any later reduction of the lower area. Thirdly, had I responded to his latest move (and I couldn't see beyond H16 if I did so), he didn't have to do anything else there (indeed, I'm fairly confident sure his stone would just be dead if I responded, although it might have assisted in a reduction), but could have just left some aji and come back to defend the cut, when I'd be very slightly worse off than if he'd just defended the cut on his last move.

So, while I'm not 100% sure on all of these reasons, they do all seem to vaguely point in the same direction. I expect him now to play H15 or H16, and then I'm still tempted to go ahead with M17, although that will take some reading to check it's OK. I won't be able to rely on a nice large alive group on top anymore, but I'm pretty sure the other two stones (or 3, if I do play M17) can connect to my live group in the upper right.

My opponent has chosen to make this exciting, at least :D

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 9:12 am
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm98 Prisoner Count :w3: 
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



cool he didn't defend lets contiune

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm98 Prisoner Count :w3: 
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . 2 . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm98 Prisoner Count :w3: 
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O 2 . . 4 . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



i was thinking about playing here

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm98 Prisoner Count :w3: 
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O 3 5 . 1 . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . 2 4 X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


but i dont like getting pushed down
and i rather spit the stones with my invasion and connect to the center group anyway

i can still play A8 to save those ugly badly managed stones
but that isn't really worth that much right now besides
its fighting time :)

i thought i was going to be out for the count but after playing with the stones a little bit more, i still got a good fighting chance to win

its amazing at how many mistakes you can make and still comeback

I love this game!

*lets get ready to rumble!* (WWF Voice)

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 10:24 am
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm99 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . 1 . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


First, let's pause to note that 1986's last move was one I actually expected - I'm not sure when the last time was that that happened, but it's been a while :D

As for my move - well, I can't really tell if this is going to work well or not given the changed situation in the upper left, but I really do feel like trying it. I'm not sure if I have much of a lead, if I have one at all, and as in general I've done quite well in this game out of hand-to-hand fighting, I don't object to perhaps starting a little more ;-)

The alternative I considered was the jump to K14, which is undeniable big(ish), but it's also very definitely gote and lets white choose comfortably between big moves all over the board. I know I'm not entitled to keep sente forever, but I think I have a decent chance of at least claiming some of the top (or reducing white's claim to it) in sente.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 11:35 am
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . 1 . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


i was orginally thinking k18
but this looks a little better
not to mention k18 its still open for later

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 5 . 8 . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X 9 O 3 O O O 7 |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . 1 . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


this is pretty intersting
makes a pretty cool tsuemgo lol
i found 2 different ways to live here


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O 3 4 . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . 2 1 5 . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . 6 . . . 7 . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


this activates the aji of p11 

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O 6 . . X . O 3 O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . 9 7 X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O 8 . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . 1 . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


this looks pretty even to me

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 11:50 am
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm101 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


That is most definitely big. But it also ignored my threat. Out of self-respect, I simply must play this move now, whatever comes of it (it will certainly be messy :mrgreen:) - especially as I considered, but rejected, playing my last move where MHO has just played.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 1:00 pm
by xDragon
1986,
1986 wrote:i can still play A8 to save those ugly badly managed stones
but that isn't really worth that much right now besides
its fighting time :)


could you show how A8 would save those stones?

Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 4:23 pm
by EdLee
1986, Hidden until upper right corner settled,
1986 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm100
$$-----------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . 4 2 5 . 8 . |
$$. . . X 9 O 3 O O O 7 |
$$. X . . . . X X X O 6 |
$$. . . . X . . . X X . |
$$. 1 . . . . . . O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
No, :w4: is sente:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$-----------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . 6 3 1 4 . . . |
$$. . . X . O 2 O O O . |
$$. X . . . . X X X O 5 |
$$. . . . X . . . X X . |
$$. W . . . . . . O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Let's see what happens in the game. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$-----------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$. . . . . 3 1 4 . . . |
$$. . . X 5 O 2 O O O . |
$$. X . . . . X X X O . |
$$. . . . X . . . X X . |
$$. O . . . . . . O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:48 am
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm102 prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


OK the A8 question first...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm102
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 3 2 X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | 1 . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This works but this is wishful thinking on my part & there is a push and cut i just found trying to answer the question

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm102
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 7 X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | 3 5 X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | 1 2 6 O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . 4 O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


its dosen't look bad for a endgame sequence though

ok, now for my move
my first thought was p11
i dont know why but i really want to play there
if he p17 i will contiue to come into the center

i know i should play p17  right now since its a forcing move but i just gotta see whats his responce to my p11

here are my variations for this move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm102 prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O 2 O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . 3 . 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm102 prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . 6 5 4 7 . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . 2 1 X 9 . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . 3 , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm102 prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . 6 . 2 . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . 3 4 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O 7 X 5 . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:52 am
by robinz
Yikes, that's not a move I expected at all. Must do much reading now :scratch: :study: :scratch:

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 8:30 am
by EdLee
Hidden until this fight is finished,
1986 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm102
$$---------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . X . O . O O O . |
$$X . . . . X X X O . |
$$. . . X . . . X X . |
$$O . . . . . . O . . |
$$. . . . . 8 . . . . |
$$. . . 6 5 4 7 . . . |
$$. . . . 2 1 X 9 . . |
$$, O . X . 3 , X . . |
$$. . . X O O O X . . |
$$. . O O X X O O . . |
$$. . . . O X O X O . |
$$. . . . O X X X X . |
$$. . . O X . . . . . |
$$, . . . . . X . . . |
$$. O . . O . . X . . |
$$. . . . . . O . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$--------------------+[/go]
1986: B would not atari with :b7:; B would reduce W's libs with :b4::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$---------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . X . O . O O O . |
$$X . . . . X X X O . |
$$. . . X . . . X X . |
$$O . . . . . . O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . 3 2 . . . . |
$$. . . 5 B W X . . . |
$$, O . X 6 1 . X . . |
$$. . . X O O O X . . |
$$. . O O X X O O 4 . |
$$. . . . O X O X O . |
$$. . . . O X X X X . |
$$. . . O X . . . . . |
$$, . . . . . X . . . |
$$. O . . O . . X . . |
$$. . . . . . O . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------[/go]
Variation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :w11: at (a), snapback
$$---------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . X . O . O O O . |
$$X . . . . X X X O . |
$$. . . X . . . X X . |
$$O . . . . . . O . . |
$$. . . . . 8 . . . . |
$$. . . . 3 2 7 . . . |
$$. . . . B W X 9 . . |
$$, O . X 0 1 a X . . |
$$. . . X O O O X 5 . |
$$. . O O X X O O 4 . |
$$. . . . O X O X O 6 |
$$. . . . O X X X X . |
$$. . . O X . . . . . |
$$, . . . . . X . . . |
$$. O . . O . . X . . |
$$. . . . . . O . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------[/go]

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 8:40 am
by EdLee
Hidden until this fight is finished,
robinz has to be careful with this variation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$---------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . X . O . O O O . |
$$X . . . . X X X O . |
$$. . . X . . . X X . |
$$O . . . . . . O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$. . . . 2 1 X . . . |
$$, O . X . 4 . X . . |
$$. . . X O O O X 5 . |
$$. . O O X X O O . . |
$$. . . . O X O X O . |
$$. . . . O X X X X . |
$$. . . O X . . . . . |
$$, . . . . . X . . . |
$$. O . . O . . X . . |
$$. . . . . . O . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------[/go]

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 8:50 am
by mw42
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$---------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . X . . . . |
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$$---------------------[/go]

This seems acceptable for black. However, it seems white is still ahead a bit, so maybe he must capture.
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