I did not renew my AGA membership.

[bearzbear]

"...keep them hooked."

This is interesting. If you frame this the right way it is interesting.

Turn it around. Why are people leaving? I don't mean the specifics (again). The way I want to frame it is in more conceptual and general terms. What would that mean? The answer that I see is that when people's expectations are not met, that is when they become disinterested and disillusioned.

So, taking that and looking at the situation with the AGA, you can ask what expectations are being set up and what expectations are not being met?

I think a look at it this way will be revealing of many of the underlying reasons that people leave the AGA.

Turned around again, if the AGA did not set up expectations that were not being met, people would be more inclined to accept what it is.

Set up the proper expectations and the perception of the membership will go up, EVEN if nothing is very much different!

_-_-bearzbear

[oren]

but I think the question is, not how to hook people initially, but rather its how to keep them hooked.

I would say a majority of people I know first signed up for tournaments. In that case we need more of them. I really would like to see an organized online league/tournament by the AGA.

[shapenaji]

We need membership drives. And promotions to hook folks.

but I think the question is, not how to hook people initially, but rather its how to keep them hooked.

True, but at the same time, there's a certain degree of "Flowers and chocolates" that needs to take place first.

[Joaz Banbeck]

...if the AGA did not set up expectations that were not being met, people would be more inclined to accept what it is.

Set up the proper expectations and the perception of the membership will go up, EVEN if nothing is very much different...

"Hi. Welcome to the AGA website. We will respond to your inquiry within 6 months."

[Kirby]

...
Actually, Kirby, I was mostly agreeing with you (for this part of the discussion) until you said this. Both the iphone app maker and the fictitious neighbor are weak analogies. We don't view an app maker as someone primarily interested in doing something for the go community, but rather this is a possible side benefit of his striving to make a buck. Purchasing his app does not support go, it just supports the I-guy. As for your neighbor, in contrast with the AGA, he is fictitious - not the neighbor himself, but rather the neighbor as happy recipient of your generosity and future go buddy. This is not to say that you wouldn't do it or that you're not generous enough, but rather that he seems more of a maybe than the AGA, an organization with a proven (even if meager) track record, so the comparison seems dubious.

...

Well, of course I like the analogy since I created it. Of course, an iphone app maker is a guy that is trying to make money, but they also help the go community. For example, SmartGo Kifu is excellent software, and someone that stumbles upon it in the app store may come to get interested in go, and want to know more. By supporting an iphone app maker, you are providing them support that they can use for future apps, and future things that benefit the go community. I think this is similar to the way that your money toward the AGA goes toward potential for future benefits to the go community by the AGA.

The main point of my analogy is to point out that the AGA does not equal "go". With today's technology, there are a number of contributors to the go community - some even do their work for free.

And I am all for supporting such contributors - go iphone app makers, the AGA, the gogameguru website, etc. I am simply saying that the AGA is just one of many contributors to the go community, and I do not feel any obligation to them financially. There are tons of players in the go community, and right now, the AGA doesn't seem to be providing much for me personally.

[Kirby]

You say my perspective is "all about me". I think this is bogus, because the 30 dollars I would spend for membership could be used - altruistically - to buy go books for my neighbor down the street.

That kind of gesture - with a real person that knows me - means more to the go community than my membership fee will.

How many of your neighbors have you given go books?

My example is hypothetical - I haven't made (well, finished) a go app, yet, either. What I am saying is that paying the AGA 30 dollars a year is not necessarily the most efficient way to support the go community in my eyes. If I wanted to support the go community, I would start in an area that I can influence directly - my local neighborhood. I think that this is more effective than throwing money into a pot that won't see my neighbor anytime soon.

Ironically (?), I have supported the AGA e-journal in the past. If you look back in your email inbox, you might notice a familiar name for the guy that put together the AGA yearbook around the end of 2010. I must say, from that experience, I do have a lot of respect for Chris Garlock. He does a lot of work, and there is a ton of content that he manages to put together. I think that's one of the reasons that the e-journal is highlighted among what the AGA does.

Still, while I think his efforts are great, it is not a necessity for me to get the e-journal. Like I said, I can just get news online. I think his efforts are great, but it's not really a reason for me to buy membership. Of course, there is the free version of the journal available, which I subscribe to. If the free version were taken away, I'd probably just look at go news online.

I guess what I'm saying is that, I do not discount the efforts that people are making toward contributing toward go. But if I want to put money to use to help my go community, I think the most efficient way to do so is to do so locally - starting with the guy next door, or my friends at work.

[Kirby]

...
It seems to me that Kirby should realize that supporting the AGA does, selfishly, support his future hopes for this game. I think most of the serious posters here should be able to see that $30, a forgettable dinner for two without alcholol, is a small price to pay for the future.
It is right to criticize and suggest better ways of doing things - but for those of us who care about this game, it is foolish to assume that tournaments and congresses will be there in the future and only care about a few Go Worlds.

I think the reason that I only think about the immediate benefit that I get from being a part of the AGA is because I do not really see the need for an organization related to go in the USA. If the AGA did not exist, I am sure that people interested in go would still write about it online. I'm sure that people would still play go online. I'm sure that I can continue to study the game as I please for the rest of my life.

The only real hope for the future that I have in such an organization that the internet doesn't already provide on a regular basis are, perhaps, tournaments and go congress.

But tournaments can be organized without the AGA. University clubs do it all the time. Admittedly, they typically do it through the AGA, but the only thing that that means is that the game results are recorded into the AGA database. If the AGA were not there, the same clubs could organize the same tournaments, and people could still play.

Go congress does sound kind of cool, I'll admit. It may be worth the investment to pay $30 a year for the chance that I will be able to go to go congress someday, I suppose.

But many things related to go can be done without an organization. I have 5 go boards at my house, and game timers. It'd be easy enough for me to sponsor a mini tournament at my house, even, if I wanted to do a tournament.

So I guess the main thing that I do not see from the thing I "should realize" is why an organization is necessary for my future hopes of the game. In the future, with or without the AGA, I can study go, play go, read about go, and potentially even gather people at my house to play in tournaments.

Why do I need an organization?

[bearzbear]

What this is about is:

- Set up the proper expectations, nothing higher.
- Meet the expectations, exceed if possible
- Do not fall short.

If the only expectations one can set are modest, be humble.

Simple enough to do it would seem.

_-_-bear

[hyperpape]

Hmm, I hope you don't want to publicize your tournament, Kirby (http://usgo.org/chapters.php). I've complained bitterly in the past about that list not being up to date, but I don't know how I would have done publicity without it.

For that matter, I don't know how I'd personally have found out about the nearest go club without the AGA. It actually doesn't show up on a Google search for "Raleigh Go", "Chapel Hill Go", or "Durham Go". (Most cities that have clubs do fare better, but I've seen others where the club is also hidden).

Will the records for your tournament be around in ten years (agagd.usgo.org)? That may seem like a silly thing to worry about, but it is nice to know that someone will get them online and put them there.

Will you do ratings for your tournament? I know, I know, ratings are for silly people, but half of the people coming to your tournament are sillies.

Thanks to the e-journal, plenty of people who are not part of any club will find out about you. Maybe they live in the boonies, so when you laboriously found all the clubs you were contacting, they never got the email. But they'll see your tournament announcement, or they'll see your writeup after the fact, and they'll know you're there.

[bearzbear]

May I inquire why you two are arguing about the obvious?

Why are you arguing about who or what is better or not than something else?

"I'm right", "No, I'm right"? What's constructive in this?

Oh wait, maybe THIS is why the AGA is locked in stalemate? Because people argue like this? Ok, I get it now.

_-_-bearzbear

[Kirby]

Hmm, I hope you don't want to publicize your tournament, Kirby (http://usgo.org/chapters.php). I've complained bitterly in the past about that list not being up to date, but I don't know how I would have done publicity without it.

For that matter, I don't know how I'd personally have found out about the nearest go club without the AGA. It actually doesn't show up on a Google search for "Raleigh Go", "Chapel Hill Go", or "Durham Go". (Most cities that have clubs do fare better, but I've seen others where the club is also hidden).

Will the records for your tournament be around in ten years (agagd.usgo.org)? That may seem like a silly thing to worry about, but it is nice to know that someone will get them online and put them there.

Will you do ratings for your tournament? I know, I know, ratings are for silly people, but half of the people coming to your tournament are sillies.

Thanks to the e-journal, plenty of people who are not part of any club will find out about you. Maybe they live in the boonies, so when you laboriously found all the clubs you were contacting, they never got the email. But they'll see your tournament announcement, or they'll see your writeup after the fact, and they'll know you're there.

The argument is about "my future hopes", is it not? I am trying to ask why an organization is necessary to fulfill my future hopes in go given that I can play, study, and so on without it. The Internet serves my purposes fine for finding a variety of opponents. And, like I said, if i really really wanted to play a tournament or something for fun (which Is not necessary), it doesn't seem that I need an organization for it. Heck, I could advertise it on this forum if I wanted.

I guess it seems that some people very much value being able to get together and play with people all across the usa, and it is important that they do this in person. Perhaps that is the "future hope" that some people have. That's what I'm guessing, anyway.

[bearzbear]

The topic is about the AGA.

Your future hopes may or may not relate to the institutional focus or concerns of and regarding the AGA.

A national Go organization is more or less required if the USA is to ever be part of the larger world Go scene, unless something happens to change that prerequisite.

The AGA at present is that organization.

It seems that the AGA has been found by many to not be meeting their expectations, nor the expectations that the AGA has set up. The basic functionality of the organization has been called into question.

So the focus is on the AGA. I have suggested what needs to be focused upon. And why that is the proper focus.

_-_-bearzbear

[Numsgil]

I only read half the thread, so sorry to jump in.

I had an AGA membership in 2010; I let it expire. For no other reason than all my go playing desires are entirely fulfilled by KGS. I went to many in person tournaments, and I enjoyed them well enough, but I don't really have any interest in doing any more in person tournaments. I don't really care about local clubs or playing face to face. I'm not sure a nationalistic go association can offer me anything I can't get more easily on the internet.

The one exception to that is reviews/lectures from pros. There was a Yulin Yang workshop here a bit ago that I enjoyed, and a pro visited the Berkeley go club and gave game reviews, which I enjoyed enough that I'd probably do it again some time. There's also some lectures frequently in the San Francisco go club, but I've never gone (it's waaaay far away from the BART (subway)).

So tournaments and organizing professionals doing teaching circuits in the States are probably the two tasks that the AGA can and should do well that I can't get from another source. (I do genuinely like my go newsletter spam. Glad the AGA is filling that hole) I'm not sure if either of the two events I mentioned previously were organized through the AGA, or if it was just local volunteers coordinating on it (who probably also are AGA volunteers). I'm not sure if I had to renew my membership to attend the Yulin Yang workshop, actually, so I might currently be a member without realizing it (I would have just rolled the membership cost in with the rest of the cost).

There are a few strong amateur teachers in the area, too, though I've never tried arranging lessons. And a unified listing of America based teachers is hard to come by (there are a number in the bay area so I'm just being lazy not taking advantage of them). So I could see the AGA acting as a "guild" of sorts for go teachers. Something simple like setting up a listing of American teachers and their relative pricing and stone strength and how they teach (face-to-face, skype, etc.) online at the least. Maybe helping teachers with administrative tasks like collecting payment, how to handle the income in terms of taxes, etc. Maybe letting people register interest in a workshops or lectures and their location and traveling teachers can use that to help plan tours. You could even set up an email to alert students that signed up of teachers visiting their area. Maybe even ways to preregister to entice a teacher to come to an area and the pre registering students can help set dates that work for them. That sort of thing.

Anyway, that's my aimless ramble about my AGA membership.

[tapir]

Take a look at the aims list of the ACGA (American College Go) at http://www.college-go.org/home/ their first aim is:

* Compile and maintain up-to-date contact information for collegiate go clubs

Surprise?

"Until the founders met each other, they didn't know about other university Go clubs. There were no intercollegiate events, and existing lists of clubs were horribly out of date." (About the ACGA)

I know hilltopgo is working on updating the AGA chapter list and I fully well know that it takes time to repair data that hasn't been properly maintained for probably years, but when a newly found organisation makes this its top priority you know it is important. In fact, there are enough people in this forum from everywhere in the U.S. to get this job done in a few weeks, if they would just collect what they already know individually. It really isn't so hard, there is a thread in this forum about the chapter list, if just everybody writes what is wrong about it, it will be very much improved soon.

But I believe some of the critics (bearzbear) fail to see usually problems are not about leadership, visions or corporate turnarounds, but about the simple things people with vision tend to overlook (data needs maintenance, communications needs effort, volunteers are social beings - often complicated ones, dues need to be collected). I am pretty sure people who do corporate turnarounds would wreck any volunteer organization they get into their hands (see: volunteers are social beings) within a short time and you can't hire new volunteers like you can hire new labour.

That collecting dues by chapters doesn't look workable might well be the result of the chapters sidelined in the organization model... anyway this already triggered an independent thread.

[Kirby]

The topic is about the AGA.

Your future hopes may or may not relate to the institutional focus or concerns of and regarding the AGA.

...

Yeah, I read some of what you posted, and wasn't interested in discussing. That's why I didn't join the thread until later. I got involved because of Mr. Waldron's post, which I agreed with in content. "My future hopes" was what I was discussing in response to HKA, because I also liked his post, and wanted to dig more into the differences in our perspective. I want to know what exactly it is that makes it worth investing in an organization, even if just for the fact that it's about go.

Perhaps this is different than your original intent in starting this thread, and should be discussed elsewhere.