Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

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RobertJasiek
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Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Post by RobertJasiek »

Javaness2 wrote:Your theory [...] is simply too badly presented to be described as brilliant.


Have you read the book? I do not reveal everything here, so you get only first hints here. The sample, WRT chapter 3, shows you mainly introduction.

Capturing Races Workshop & Monkey Jump Workshop are just puzzle collections with some obvious theory.


The two books are light day and night. Calling good theory results "obvious" is the third stage of great findings (after the stages "everything flawed", "nothing new").
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Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Post by hyperpape »

xed_over wrote:
hyperpape wrote:Wait, did Robert's username really get changed by a mod? I am beyond baffled.

yeah... you can still see it in some of his quoted posts
Yes, I suppose I was just expressing my difficulty believing it. Was it you, Joaz?
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Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Post by Bonobo »

Hyperpape, see here.

To quote it:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
[admn]

*** Bit Shortage Wrning ***

L19 is runing out of bts. Pls do not mak unncssry psts.
Fr the durtion of the emrgncy, pls abbrvt all wrds lik xlnt + brllnt.
We expct mor bts nxt wk.

Thx,
JB


[/admn]
Change of Robert’s username must’ve “happened” shortly before or after this post.

BTW now Robert’s username is back as it was before.
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Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Post by cyclops »

RobertJasiek wrote:LOL. Everything is "just textbooks", even the bible.


@Pontius Moderator: We got him, crucify him! :rambo:
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Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Post by hyperpape »

Sorry, I read all that, and it's the obvious explanation, but I wanted to be really sure there wasn't something even weirder going on. Ideally I'd like to hear it from Joaz.
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Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Post by RobertJasiek »

FWIW, I did not even receive an admin email that my username was changed. Apparently Joaz(?) was too much in a joke mode, lacking a picture with even more pillows?:)
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Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Post by quantumf »

RobertJasiek wrote:a picture with even more pillows?:)


I thought the pillow fight pictures were offensive. I understood and appreciated the intent, but the pictures selected were inappropriate. However, the fact that so many people "like"d them suggested to me that my offence-o-meter was not calibrated correctly, so I tried to ignore them. I wonder if anyone else found them unsuitable?
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Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Post by SoDesuNe »

quantumf wrote:
RobertJasiek wrote:a picture with even more pillows?:)


I thought the pillow fight pictures were offensive. I understood and appreciated the intent, but the pictures selected were inappropriate. However, the fact that so many people "like"d them suggested to me that my offence-o-meter was not calibrated correctly, so I tried to ignore them. I wonder if anyone else found them unsuitable?


Yes.
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Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Post by RobertJasiek »

quantumf wrote:I wonder if anyone else found them unsuitable?


It is more that I find such picture posts as superfluous as one line pure smiley replies.
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Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Post by daal »

quantumf wrote:
RobertJasiek wrote:a picture with even more pillows?:)


I thought the pillow fight pictures were offensive. I understood and appreciated the intent, but the pictures selected were inappropriate. However, the fact that so many people "like"d them suggested to me that my offence-o-meter was not calibrated correctly, so I tried to ignore them. I wonder if anyone else found them unsuitable?


Well, if we are going to let this discussion digress in every which way, I appreciated that Joaz didn't jump in right away with one of his threats to close down the discussion and instead responded with an image which humorously and not inaccurately expressed where he thought the discussion was going. I was glad that he refrained from wielding the admin club at the time. What was offensive about the images? Characterizing the discussion participants as little girls? Seems like good natured jostling, and could fall under artistic license.

The later "bit shortage wrning" also would have been funny had he not used it as an official admin harrumpf, thus not poking fun, but rather bullying a user whose thread had already been lopped off from another one to make room for his rather expansive style. Note also that the other major thrower-of-pillows did not suffer any curtailing despite the fact that bold print is pure bit waste.

On the other hand, anyone interested in discovering anything brilliant perhaps about Japanese literature might be a bit put off by so many flying feathers. However, such a lively discussion, averaging over 50 posts a day over 3 days in which another admin is an active participant doesn't seem like something the forum users should be denied.

On a side note, all this interest does not seem to have qualified it for the eminently useful list of "active posts." It seems to have been beaten out by livelier posts with 0 replies or 1/30th the number of views.
Last edited by daal on Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Post by RobertJasiek »

So how to compare Japanese vs. Western literature in general? These have been my observations:

- There are many more Japanese books.
- The percentage of trivial, weak books is much greater among the Japanese.
- Due to the still limited number of Western books, more topics are not taught at all yet than in Japanese books.
- On average, Western books are more general advice orientated than Japanese books. (E.g., on average more explicitly stated principles.)
- There are topics covered in Western books not covered in Japanese books and, for other topics, vice versa. (Example Western only: modern liberty counting theory. Example Japanese only: problem books of top pro level difficulty.)
- There are topics covered in neither Western nor Japanese books. (Example: General treatment of move decisions in human reading. So far, only a few special methods (Example: Local Move Selection) have been mentioned. For informatics, there are various books on algorithms not specifically designed for but with modifications applicable for go.)

So the overall conclusion for books of all degrees of quality can be: both Western and Japanese literature have a couple of useful books.
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Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Post by John Fairbairn »

So how to compare Japanese vs. Western literature in general? These have been my observations:


Although I wouldn't disagree entirely with your conclusions, Robert, I think these points are worth mentioning:

1. You do not know Japanese and so your impression of what is inside Japanese books is therefore largely unreliable. Even your English is unreliable.
2. As well as books, Japanese go has enjoyed a vast array of magazine articles going back over a century. Much of the best material is to be found there. For some aspects there are also many good items in shogi books/articles.
3. Your habit of mentioning western research (usually yours) in the same breath as Japanese material, as if they were equal, is part of what people mean when they say they object not to your ideas but to your presentation. Put simply, you are no Jack Kennedy.

So the overall conclusion for books of all degrees of quality can be: both Western and Japanese literature have a couple of useful books.


I would like to assume this is your attempt at a joke. It's either that or, to use one of your favourite words, stupid - in this case in terms of both content and presentation.

There are topics covered in neither Western nor Japanese books. (Example: General treatment of move decisions in human reading


Counter-example 1: "Thinking techniques of professional go players" (Seeing the overall position and the ability to evaluate) by Yoda Norimoto. Over 200 pages of solid text (three diagrams). Yes, he's only a "stupid Japanese 9-dan" but he's been a Meijin and has had international success. And he can write well.

PS My aim here is not to attack anyone but rather to defend Japanese literature - it just so happens that that is mainly attacked by just one person. To answer the thread's question: I believe Japanese go literature is many, many more times "brilliant" (poor choice of word, but also useful/valuable/proven) than western go literature, as is likewise Chinese or Korean literature, and the proof is partly in the numbers and strength of Oriental players, their books not just teaching them but motivating, inspiring and entertaining them. The most brilliant and important book of all, of course, is the Xuanxuan Qijing (Gateway to All Marvels), which is much more than a problem book. Any book that keeps its cachet for 700 years and is repeatedly copied without ever being improved must have something.
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Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Post by RobertJasiek »

John Fairbairn wrote:3. Your habit of mentioning western research (usually yours) in the same breath as Japanese material


Do you have doubts about the relevance of Western research (*)? Do you have doubts that, in Western go books (books, not research papers), most research (*) results appear in my books?

I would like to assume this is your attempt at a joke.


I dislike meta-discussions, where discussions are possible.

There are topics covered in neither Western nor Japanese books. (Example: General treatment of move decisions in human reading


Counter-example 1: "Thinking techniques of professional go players" (Seeing the overall position and the ability to evaluate) by Yoda Norimoto. Over 200 pages of solid text (three diagrams).


I have specifically not spoken of thinking techniques; I know that there are (a few?) books on thinking techniques. I have spoken of decision making in reading. The two things can be related but need not be related. Does Yoda's book explain also decision making in reading? I do not mean strategic planning including basic strategic choice making, nor do I mean positional analysis methods such as seeing and evaluating the whole board position or the ability to evaluate its aspects. When I speak of decision making in reading, I presume that the available analysis results, options and strategic choices are already known. The next step of decision making then is closely related to reading: how to filter the superfluous, how to decide among not yet filtered choices, when to apply which kind of reading. Does Yoda's book discuss also this in detail?

Yes, he's only a "stupid Japanese 9-dan" but he's been a Meijin and has had international success. And he can write well.


Irrelevant. Either the quality of the book is good or it is not - that is what matters.

motivating, inspiring and entertaining


Good aspects, if also theory is taught.

Gateway to All Marvels [...] which is much more than a problem book.


So what is its further go theory contents?

EDIT:

(*) I mean go theory research useful for players' knowledge and current or future improvement potential. Other kind of research (history, rules, society etc.) I do not mean here.
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Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Post by hyperpape »

RobertJasiek wrote:Do you have doubts about the relevance of Western research (*)? Do you have doubts that, in Western go books (books, not research papers), most research (*) results appear in my books?
Excluding research papers is good, but you'd get even better numbers if you restricted the sample to books written in English by native German speakers.
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Re: Is Japanese or Western literature more brilliant?

Post by RobertJasiek »

hyperpape wrote:Excluding research papers is good,


It depends.

For the context of John criticising me, excluding the research papers is a necessity because otherwise his statement "Your habit of mentioning western research (usually yours)" does not make sense: When I praise Western research in a broad sense (IIRC, I have done this also in this thread in a message or two), then I do not do ("usually yours") for that he criticises me.

For the context of considering literature in a broad sense, excluding some forms of publications makes no good sense. There are the research papers, the seminar brochures and the books.
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