Something that didn't really make sense to me was approaching from farther away to discourage a pincer.
As far as I could tell there was less pressure on the corner stone so a pincer would be easier.
But I guess the fact that it's hard to connect the two stones when white changes direction is enough.
Some loose go thoughts.
Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 11:09 pm
by EdLee
W R7 discourages a pincer, yes, but W also gives B the choice of R5.
So globally, the R7 approach must be worth it to allow B R5,
otherwise what's wrong with the R6 approach.
Re:
Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 4:08 pm
by Unusedname
EdLee wrote:W R7 discourages a pincer, yes, but W also gives B the choice of R5.
So globally, the R7 approach must be worth it to allow B R5,
otherwise what's wrong with the R6 approach.
That's what I don't know. The only time I know to play two spaces is in the kobyashi opening.
In both cases I would prefer "a" to negate the influence along the side.
On the bottom of the board "b" would be too far because the group would certainly be too cramped.
But at the top "b" wouldn't be that cramped. Am I taking too little by preferring "a"?
Or is "b" just a different style that invites fighting.
Re: Games I played and stuff
Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 4:29 pm
by Bill Spight
I guess y'all are talking about #151, but the SGF file does not seem to exist anymore.
Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 6:44 pm
by EdLee
Unusedname wrote:But I guess this is different because the corner stone is lower.
Probably this. Huge difference between 3-4 and 4-4:
for example, just look at the number of pages dedicated to each (in Takao or Ishida).
Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 6:51 pm
by EdLee
Unusedname wrote:But at the top "b" wouldn't be that cramped.
Am I taking too little by preferring "a"?
Or is "b" just a different style that invites fighting.
But I also feel that at these levels, we would make
much bigger and much worse mistakes in the follow-ups,
so the focus is on those bigger mistakes, and less on (a),(b),(c), or (d).
(Not to say the opening is not important; it is good to study, of course;
but when we make most of our mistakes in the follow-ups,
they become more important and more urgent to fix.)
(I think (a) is also perfectly playable and leads to
a different game, but I prefer (b); yes, probably a matter of preference on the top.
I'm not sure of a good distance from W's wall on LL corner,
but B cannot approach too close to it.)
Re: Games I played and stuff
Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 2:39 pm
by Unusedname
Bill Spight wrote:I guess y'all are talking about #151, but the SGF file does not seem to exist anymore.
Ah strange that you can't see it, here you go. It was just a small few diagrams.
Interestingly Nick Sibicky just recorded a lecture where gu li plays against someone who pincers his two space approach to the 3-4.
And even though it was farther, white still manages to jump in and settle the corner pretty easily.
EdLee wrote:
Unusedname wrote:But at the top "b" wouldn't be that cramped.
Am I taking too little by preferring "a"?
Or is "b" just a different style that invites fighting.
But I also feel that at these levels, we would make
much bigger and much worse mistakes in the follow-ups,
so the focus is on those bigger mistakes, and less on (a),(b),(c), or (d).
(Not to say the opening is not important; it is good to study, of course;
but when we make most of our mistakes in the follow-ups,
they become more important and more urgent to fix.)
(I think (a) is also perfectly playable and leads to
a different game, but I prefer (b); yes, probably a matter of preference on the top.
I'm not sure of a good distance from W's wall on LL corner,
but B cannot approach too close to it.)
I suppose you're right that there are bigger mistakes outside the opening, but I prefer thinking about the opening. It's easier. Or maybe not easier, just more enjoyable.
So these are the follow ups for black.
I think (a) is normally a bad move because it's pre-pinched. But that might be different thanks to the support of the shimari.
I don't like (b) because white at O16 reaches naturally to K16. Though it might be considered too many moves on this side depending on the rest of the board.
I think (c) and (d) are sort of aimless invasions. Although (c) has the ko potential by attaching to O16
I think (e) would be possible later.
(g) is another move for later if you really want to approach from that side.
(h) might as well throw this one in for consideration too. Haha.
(f) is my favorite because it's hard to find a good answer as white.
(a) poor connection to the 4-4 stone. If black invades at 3-3 white's wall will look over concentrated or it will face the wrong way.
(b) seems very low. very slow.
(c) Better connection with the 4-4 stone but there's still the invasion point.
(d) Better connection but again still invasion points
(e) Personally I think the two stones are too far from the corner. But I could be wrong.
For these reasons I don't like K17 but it does lead me to like L17.
In this case if black approaches this close again O16 is well placed (Still with invasion points) But also black is more easily invaded.
(d) might be good because the invasion isn't so serious without the checking stone.
(c) and (b) seem too weird to me. Are these normal moves?
(a) I think this looks weird for white. Now that white invested a move at a I think that makes it okay for black to invade at (b),(c),(d),(e) Though I expect this thought could very well be wrong.
Actually I think a lot of these thoughts might be wrong haha.
But I am especially curious about Fig 1.2 (e)
And the value of L17 instead of K17
Re: Games I played and stuff
Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 3:14 am
by Unusedname
My correspondence game with skydyr.
I really prefer correspondence games.
They're a lot more fun, and I get more time to think. Easier to play games when I don't have to play it all at once.
(Unusedname on OGS, challenge me!)
I think the most important mistakes are
I don't know how to make sure I don't make this mistake again. I feel like I won't recognize when I'm making this kind of mistake. Need to be comfortable with more joseki. Need to play more games. I thought I read something bad for white.
Maybe Uhhhh I'm not sure about this move. I thought it was a great move. But maybe My stones are too weak to play a move like this?
Maybe Idk I think this probe really helped strengthen black. Also maybe the only interesting move in the game. (I've started to worry I have a boring style. I think the moves I come up with are very plain and unimaginative)
Maybe I didn't really get a good attack off on the shimari. Lazy reading. I read that I could cut through for a lot of points but didn't fully read the outcome. Same as Bad habit.
This game is actually what made me start posting all that stuff about the opening.
I felt like I did perfect for the first 24 moves
I felt way ahead.'
I counted myself down 10 when I resigned.
Re: Games I played and stuff
Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 10:55 am
by skydyr
Unusedname wrote:My correspondence game with skydyr.
...
My thoughts:
With my idea was to devalue the right side since white had invested 2 stones to black's one. In retrospect, I suspect a simple small knight's move would have been fine.
I wonder if black should have tenukied and left this stone to fend for itself.
I'm not sure about. I think white could have played more severely, as with an inside shoulder hit.
At things are settled already, so it's a question of whether this or the upper left is bigger. I suspect the upper left is.
On the alternative for This really depends on the followup you envision. If black hanes, is white going to extend, block, crosscut, what? I don't think the extension is good for white, as there's no stone on the other side to really build a moyo from. I don't like the block also, because black strengthens a big side while white gets a medium sized corner. I thought the game move was fine, to take sente simply.
At I was a bit surprised you didn't aim at the eye stealing point. I remember feeling after this that my group was okay so I had a free rein to play elsewhere.
I hated this move, but didn't think I had the time to jump in from the bottom.
I felt better after this actually. Black had reduced white's framework decently, and then took profit though in gote. I don't think I noticed the cutting aji right away. Perhaps the bottom side was bigger, but I thought it would end up dameish. I definitely knew I was behind, though.
too close? wrong reducing move? I'm not sure. The ensuing invasion certainly helped black catch up.
I don't have a lot to say about the rest of the game that you didn't. I do feel, though, that my openings lately have been quite lacking, and that I make up for it in the middle and endgame.
Re: Games I played and stuff
Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 12:07 am
by Unusedname
skydyr wrote:
Unusedname wrote:My correspondence game with skydyr.
...
My thoughts:
With my idea was to devalue the right side since white had invested 2 stones to black's one. In retrospect, I suspect a simple small knight's move would have been fine.
I wonder if black should have tenukied and left this stone to fend for itself.
I'm not sure about. I think white could have played more severely, as with an inside shoulder hit.
At things are settled already, so it's a question of whether this or the upper left is bigger. I suspect the upper left is.
On the alternative for This really depends on the followup you envision. If black hanes, is white going to extend, block, crosscut, what? I don't think the extension is good for white, as there's no stone on the other side to really build a moyo from. I don't like the block also, because black strengthens a big side while white gets a medium sized corner. I thought the game move was fine, to take sente simply.
At I was a bit surprised you didn't aim at the eye stealing point. I remember feeling after this that my group was okay so I had a free rein to play elsewhere.
I hated this move, but didn't think I had the time to jump in from the bottom.
I felt better after this actually. Black had reduced white's framework decently, and then took profit though in gote. I don't think I noticed the cutting aji right away. Perhaps the bottom side was bigger, but I thought it would end up dameish. I definitely knew I was behind, though.
too close? wrong reducing move? I'm not sure. The ensuing invasion certainly helped black catch up.
I don't have a lot to say about the rest of the game that you didn't. I do feel, though, that my openings lately have been quite lacking, and that I make up for it in the middle and endgame.
I think was a fine splitting move. I would never think of tenuki. But I guess there are still other big spots on the board. Could find sente approaching the top.
I don't know if I thought of this in game, but I'd be afraid to shoulder hit on the inside.
If white ends up with thickness facing the bottom it's in gote. And black gets the big move at the bottom.
If white separates the two black stones, white's corner enclosure is thin.
Though to be honest I don't know a comfortable sequence for white splitting the two black stones. All the variations I see are ugly and crude.
I was thinking extend, block. It would make the side nice for white.
I don't remember if I mentioned this in our review but I could never find time to poke the eye shape.
:pride:
interesting that we both feel positive about this exchange.
Ah, maybe. I didn't expect E4. Maybe F3 is fine. W: F3 B: E4 W: F4 threatening to surround again and then claiming the side.
Re: Games I played and stuff
Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 8:22 am
by skydyr
One of the reasons I was happy with was that there was no longer any real existential pressure white could apply to the right side group. Followups were just points.
Re: Games I played and stuff
Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 11:04 pm
by Unusedname
Ah true. There's no way you could have reduced me at the bottom the way you did if I had held on to the three stones.
In other news, just got back from vegas. And I wish I didn't have to leave.
Also I don't really know the follow ups after a cap.
These correspondence games are causing me unnecessary stress.
I've got a dead 18 stone dragon in one game.
And this other game feels like it's going to be really hard to find good moves soon.
Who else wants to join in for a game?
Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:25 pm
by EdLee
Unusedname wrote:I don't really know the follow ups after a cap.
As you already know, it depends on both the local and global situations.
Unusedname wrote:I feel like this should be such a basic thing.
Basics are hard.
Re: Games I played and stuff
Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:10 pm
by Unusedname
I'm back.
Played a few games.
This is a pretty good summary of how they've been going.
Not looking for reviews, just posting it for my reference.
There are many obvious mistakes.
This is what I get for never getting into tsumego.
The games are fun though. So this time I'll probably be back for awhile. :]
Other things.
Coming up with a pretty silly theory to turn tengen into a good move. Unfortunately I'm not strong enough to apply it because I can't count how many opening moves remain.
(But I also can't really tell when the opening ends after it's ended. So hah, that would make it even harder.)
(b) and 
(c).
I don't know how to make sure I don't make this mistake again. I feel like I won't recognize when I'm making this kind of mistake.
Need to be comfortable with more joseki. Need to play more games.
I thought I read something bad for white.
Uhhhh I'm not sure about this move. I thought it was a great move. But maybe My stones are too weak to play a move like this?
Idk I think this probe really helped strengthen black. Also maybe the only interesting move in the game. (I've started to worry I have a boring style. I think the moves I come up with are very plain and unimaginative)
I didn't really get a good attack off on the shimari.
Lazy reading. I read that I could cut through for a lot of points but didn't fully read the outcome. Same as 
my idea was to devalue the right side since white had invested 2 stones to black's one. In retrospect, I suspect a simple small knight's move would have been fine.
I wonder if black should have tenukied and left this stone to fend for itself.
I'm not sure about. I think white could have played more severely, as with an inside shoulder hit.
I hated this move, but didn't think I had the time to jump in from the bottom.
I felt better after this actually. Black had reduced white's framework decently, and then took profit though in gote. I don't think I noticed the cutting aji right away. Perhaps the bottom side was bigger, but I thought it would end up dameish. I definitely knew I was behind, though.
too close? wrong reducing move? I'm not sure. The ensuing invasion certainly helped black catch up.
:pride:
