Life In 19x19

I'm glad you brought this up I get really annoyed by the scoring. I absolutely love the game, I think it's very fun, but the scoring bores me to tears. That's why I always say that whoever captured more pieces wins. That way I probably know who won already and I don't have to do a lot of troublesome counting. Although it was really funny at my Go club, this boy beat the other guy, and he went, "2, 4, 6, 8, 74!!!!!!" It's better if I act it out. He just did it so quickly.

So, whoever captured more pieces wins for me. I'm wrong but I don't care. I don't make a fuss, but I do get annoyed when I capture more pieces and the other person got more territory.

But, life isn't fair, and I have to follow the rules. And capturing pieces isn't against the rules. It's the first rule you learn.

whoever captured more pieces wins

I do get annoyed when I capture more pieces and the other person got more territory.

Why do you get annoyed when you win? I don't even want to imagine what happens when you lose.
Wait, you did tell your opponent that you were playing a go variant in which whoever has the most prisoners at the end of the game wins, right? Otherwise you two would be playing different games.

darWIN wrote:I'm glad you brought this up I get really annoyed by the scoring. I absolutely love the game, I think it's very fun, but the scoring bores me to tears. That's why I always say that whoever captured more pieces wins. That way I probably know who won already and I don't have to do a lot of troublesome counting. Although it was really funny at my Go club, this boy beat the other guy, and he went, "2, 4, 6, 8, 74!!!!!!" It's better if I act it out. He just did it so quickly.

So, whoever captured more pieces wins for me. I'm wrong but I don't care. I don't make a fuss, but I do get annoyed when I capture more pieces and the other person got more territory.

But, life isn't fair, and I have to follow the rules. And capturing pieces isn't against the rules. It's the first rule you learn.

You can make the case that an early version of go was in fact scored by who captured more stones. It would have been a form of no pass go.

Bill Spight wrote:
You can make the case that an early version of go was in fact scored by who captured more stones. It would have been a form of no pass go.

Probably. It's more satisfying to capture the opponent than it is to learn the complicated territory strategy. If people placed stones on the board without capture at all, wouldn't you both end up with equal amounts of territory?

darWIN wrote:If people placed stones on the board without capture at all, wouldn't you both end up with equal amounts of territory?

No. There are even occasional professional games with no captures. The boundaries of territories may be more efficient for one side than another.

leichtloeslich wrote:

whoever captured more pieces wins

I do get annoyed when I capture more pieces and the other person got more territory.

Why do you get annoyed when you win? I don't even want to imagine what happens when you lose.
Wait, you did tell your opponent that you were playing a go variant in which whoever has the most prisoners at the end of the game wins, right? Otherwise you two would be playing different games.

Well because they said they won but they didn't capture as many pieces as me. I'm a good loser actually, but I can be kind of a bad winner and gloat a little bit.

To answer your question, sometimes I tell them, and sometimes I don't, and the Go is always the same, either way you count. However if I tell them about the capture scoring then they become far more aggressive. It depends on the player, a woman I played was very good at capture, and captured all of my pieces. another time a man was very bad, even told to be aggressive he didn't do it, and said that my way of scoring would ruin the entire game. He did capture my pieces though, told to be aggressive, but not told to be aggressive, I could capture more pieces than him. Also I had a handicap against him.

Basically the entire game is about capture though. what makes a safe structure is about capture, and the goal is to find weaknesses and attack.

But capture isn't that easy. People notice if you're surrounding them, and try to escape. That's why it is a patient game.

The ladder is the fastest way. But really you need to plot, plan, trap, sneak up on them and surprise them with your kills. Get them in a position where there is no escape.

Do not underestimate the strategy of capture, it is all there is, and be patient. That's a big thing I've learned from the game, patience.

snorri wrote:
No. There are even occasional professional games with no captures. The boundaries of territories may be more efficient for one side than another.

But how, they both placed the same number of stones, they should be taking up the same amount of space.

darWIN wrote:

snorri wrote:
No. There are even occasional professional games with no captures. The boundaries of territories may be more efficient for one side than another.

But how, they both placed the same number of stones, they should be taking up the same amount of space.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For the sake of argument, here's a diagram where each player has played exactly the same number of stones. Black has enclosed twice as much space as white has. There's no way for either player to play stones inside the other's enclosed space without being captured, so instead of playing it out, we just count it as theirs to save time.

For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 6 . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 7 8 |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X 2 9 |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 4 |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 5 |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | 1 O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . 5 |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 4 |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 7 |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 6 . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So long as both players agree that one can't survive without being captured in an area surrounded by the other, it's a way to decide that there are no more meaningful plays. Otherwise, play could continue until there are no more legal moves, but the side with the larger empty space would win by being able to capture more so long as both players kept playing. When you pass to end a game, you are basically admitting that you don't think you can keep playing and gain anything. If both players were to keep playing infinitely, the player surrounding less empty space would lose, because he would have to fill his eyes for his groups first, giving his opponent a huge capture.

Does this make sense?

He means if there were no capture rule

jts wrote:GnuGo uses area rules, GnuGo fills in territory, GnuGo captures every single one of its dead stones. If territory scoring was the problem, these beginners shouldn't have had any problems. But they did have problems; they were horribly, horribly confused.

The 3.8 version that I have on my computer uses territory scoring by default and I have never seen it or earlier versions have the behavior that you describe.

shapenaji wrote:I had this experience with my father the first time I ever played (when I was 8). The game went on forever, and we ran into serious confusions about how to score. As a result, I did not try the game again for another 12 years, when I had someone to walk me through territory scoring.

Count me in as another one who ended up not learning go because of territory scoring. It took me more than a decade after that first experience before I downloaded Igowin and learned to simply pass when it did and have it score, basically skipping out on the whole having to score part until I had enough life and death experience to actually learn territory scoring. (if it hadn't been for Hikaru no Go I would probably never have tried go again)

HermanHiddema wrote:You would really prefer using area scoring rules over having an enthusiastic and friendly teacher willing to spend time and answer question? You really think the rules issue is that important?

Yes, I don't want to have to seek specialized help just to learn to play a game.

Also, that doesn't even touch on the unrealistic perspective of finding a teacher to begin with. In my country there is about one go club per 40000 square kilometers or so.

Whoever has the most captures wins the game?

My first move: pass. Defeat me.

Dusk Eagle wrote:Whoever has the most captures wins the game?

My first move: pass. Defeat me.

Yeah, that's why you need to lose the pass rule to have capture-go approximate real go.

This discussion reminds me of Myungwan's statement at go congress this year that it's difficult for people to improve after a certain point when they learn go via capture go, and they should instead learn about the game in terms of efficiency. When you think of the game in terms of capturing stones, it's difficult to see past this, and when you reach a certain skill level, you hit a wall because to win the game, you have to have a different mindset than capturing stones.

That being said, capturing is a lot of fun, so if people just thought of the game in terms of efficiency and not in terms of capturing, we might have fewer people stick with the game.

Dusk Eagle wrote:Whoever has the most captures wins the game?

My first move: pass. Defeat me.

AGA rules, please hand me your pass stone.

shapenaji wrote:

Dusk Eagle wrote:Whoever has the most captures wins the game?

My first move: pass. Defeat me.

Yeah, that's why you need to lose the pass rule to have capture-go approximate real go.

Yep, and if you explicitly drop the pass rule, then they'll be no confusion about whether you were playing real Go or Capture-Go.