Life In 19x19

Most people who don't progress despite major time investments are reading too many theory books and are doing not enough practice. A temporary stop to reading theory and invest in tsumego-play-review may be a good cure to that. Of course you shouldn't put the new concepts aside forever and a day.

Krama wrote:- I am stuck at this level, and I feel lost.
- I will now attempt to stop all theory learning and simply focus
on doing tsumego only + playing games.
- This will be extremely boring and I just hope I can break the barrier.

I really weaker then you so it's difficult for me to help... but... I'm the proud owner of an optimistic translator ...
so let's give it a try :

Optimistic Translator Result wrote:- I am stuck at this level, and I feel lost.

oh... ok... that's the same here...
but let's see what happend with the rest of your message ...

Optimistic Translator Result wrote:- Do you think stoping all theory learning and simply focus on doing tsumego only + playing games will help me ?
- I'm extremely excited to find news ideas to break the barrier, I look forward for your suggestions !

Of course any situation is different and I don't want to put words in your mouth... I suppose that being a bit disapointed when reaching a wall is just "normal"... I'm just trying to give you a bit of "energy" but if my message doesn't make in sense in your situation, just forget it...

I would say very much not a case of "one size fits all".

You probably need your games gone over in more detail than just the moves made (for example, how many seconds before making that move). Not just that you are making mistakes but trying to determine why you keep making them.

There may be bad habits to be broken.

It is far from clear to me how one manages to break a habit like "impulse to follow".

Kageyama's theory of walls blocking progress is basically that you've reached a certain point where you've gotten things figured out, and are now able to play fancy moves that break the rules of good moves within your level. However, to get beyond that level, you need to look back and focus on the fundamentals again. These are the simple and basic things, like reading, shape, positional judgement, kiai, etc. that you need to refine as concepts again and again as you get stronger.

I remember when I first learned about the shoulder hit, for example. It was amazing! I had this tool to reduce my opponent's budding framework rather than make a risky invasion. But then I started playing it in all my games, because it was so great, and often losing. As I understood it better, I got a better sense of when it's appropriate to deploy, and when it isn't, and I stopped using it as much in situations where something else would be better. Now it's a bit more clear-cut when it's great and when it's horrible, but there are still a lot of cases in the middle where it seems like a possibility but I still have trouble judging if that's the right move. Again, with time, I expect to clarify this more.

The other thing to realize is that when you are, say, 20k, a quick once-over of material on the fuseki could easily improve your game by a few stones, since the idea of a 2 space extension for a base or making a corner enclosure may be quite novel to you. Just learning what sente and gote are can also give a big boost. However, once you get to a certain point, not only have you already digested the broad overview, but everyone else has too, and you need to refine it. Then you'll get to a point where everyone has digested that refinement, and you need to refine it again... but you can only refine it as far as your reading will allow, so you need to improve that too.

Welcome to the grind that is getting stronger.

So what do you suggest I do? How do I return to the fundamentals?

Krama wrote:How do I return to the fundamentals?

Study and practise the fundamentals. I.e., read about them, apply them to your games and practise reading [of sequences] (which is a particular fundamental that cannot be learnt only from reading about it).

Now, this was easy to answer:)

Krama wrote:So what do you suggest I do? How do I return to the fundamentals?

Well, what are the fundamentals? Practice them.

To be more specific, I'll add an incomplete list here:

- Read, because nothing answers questions about a position like an exhaustive answer.
- Read deeper, because you can and should stretch, and you may get to a better answer.
- Don't let your shape get broken.
- Count, or know roughly how you stand, so you know how to proceed ( i.e. all out moves to prevent a loss, solid moves to maintain a win)
- Don't strengthen your opponent's weak stones
- Strengthen your weak stones
- If there is miai on the board, make sure you get one of them. This is just as important in the endgame. Sente isn't sente if you can do the same amount of damage to your opponent.
- Kiai: don't play submissively. Actively resist if possible. This does not apply when your opponent plays a thank-you move, but make sure it's actually a thank-you move.
- Don't ruin aji with sente moves before you know how you want to use that aji.
- Know which stones are important, and which aren't.
- Know which direction is bigger.
- Have a goal behind an attack. That goal should not be killing unless there's no other way to win. In kyu games particularly, sometimes you have to kill an unreasonable invasion, but if there's a way you can win without killing, it's often better.
- Strength makes areas smaller. Play in bigger areas.
- Strength of groups is relative.
- Don't play thank you moves.
- Don't take away your own liberties.
- Go is not about making territory. Territory arises naturally through the flow of the game.
- Know what sente is. Know what gote is. Are those moves actually sente, or do you just want them to be?
- Also, don't respond to gote moves. Just because it will be sente at some point doesn't mean it is now.
- You don't need to save that group (especially in gote), so long as you get more elsewhere. More may not be directly tangible.
- Keep your stones connected. Cut your opponent's stones.
- Know when a fight is fair, and when it isn't. Play accordingly.
- Use your influence (and not for directly making territory early on).
- Know how to distinguish what part of the game you are in (early, middlegame, endgame) and play accordingly.

This list is far from exhaustive, of course, and I'm sure lots of people will have quibbles with it. The key, though, is that many of these are things that you think you know at a given level, but to move on to the next, you need to refine them. Maybe that move you thought was sente before isn't, because it was played too early, or because you have a more devastating move to play instead. Maybe that move that seemed forceful actually leaves you with liberty problems 5 moves down the line, but you couldn't read that far before. Maybe that move you normally respond to doesn't actually threaten your group, but only a few points, and you can tenuki since you are confident you will live. On the other hand, just because you will live doesn't mean you should automatically tenuki

skydyr wrote:Strength makes areas smaller.

Why?!

RobertJasiek wrote:

skydyr wrote:Strength makes areas smaller.

Why?!

I was thinking in terms of playing near strong groups as opposed to weak groups. Perhaps I phrased it poorly, though.

Certainly if there are two opposing strong groups nearby, an area generally becomes dame. If you play close to your own strength, it's often inefficient, while if your opponent plays there, they may end up with a weak or small group without much compensation.

I'm certainly open to other opinions on this, though.

I see, so to practice my reading I should just read?

Should I simply solve tsumego or is it a good practice to just put some stones on the board and try to read some sequence?

Also I do have a problem when reading out long sequences where I forget where stones are. When I visualize stones after few seconds as I am reading the stones fade away and while I know some stones must be at that specific area I can't really tell where exactly with a sharp answer.

How do you guys deal with reading? Nobody every told me how to read, as it is something you must figure out yourself. But it is damn hard to read moves ahead if they don't seem natural or simple.

If there is a complex tesuji, or L&D problem I simply forget where some stones are placed and then I have to go back and it takes so much time just to remember where I marked the stones. Then the problem is if I am not completely sure where they are I can't see a snapback, ko, atari, etc.

It seems that you can give a good guideline for anything related to go study, but when asked on how to practice reading the answer is always, to read.

That is like asking how to swim and someone just tells you that you need to swim in order to learn how to swim. No guidelines on how to move your legs and arms, what to do with your head.

Krama wrote:How do you guys deal with reading? Nobody every told me how to read, as it is something you must figure out yourself. But it is damn hard to read moves ahead if they don't seem natural or simple.

Do you have a problem with visulization? Go grab a simple problem, maybe lay it out on the board and focus on it. If you walk away from the board, or close your eyes, can you see the position clearly in your mind? Maybe look at a blank board and try to visualize the problem on there? Can you see it?

If you cant, maybe you need to work on practice visualizing things. Do more practice visualizing (just holding the images in your mind and imagine adding stones to the positions until you can see those clearly in your mind too). It might be hard at first, but with practice you will improve!

Krama wrote:I see, so to practice my reading I should just read?

Should I simply solve tsumego or is it a good practice to just put some stones on the board and try to read some sequence?

Also I do have a problem when reading out long sequences where I forget where stones are. When I visualize stones after few seconds as I am reading the stones fade away and while I know some stones must be at that specific area I can't really tell where exactly with a sharp answer.

One way to work on this is to just lay out the start of a ladder on the board, and throw some stones around the other side. The ladder is non-branching, so just visualize it stone by stone until you see how it interacts with the ones it hits. If you lose track of it, move the ladder a few spaces closer and try it again. Once you can hold it all in your head, move it back a space, or change the arrangement of the stones it hits and read it to see what happens again.

Tsumego are also a decent way to work on this, provided you test out all the variants in your head before looking at the answer.

In important games, I've definitely had times when I felt I couldn't read a sequence because it was just a couple moves too long, and I was also able to will myself to read it out fully by convincing myself that it was possible for me to do.

I'm guessing this is obvious, but online I find that both physically "playing" out the moves with my mouse (or finger) helps - as does letting my pointer hover over the next move. For in person games I've found that it is a little frowned upon (that said even gesturing slightly at the board helps me visualize the sequence - though it's a clear tell).

Edit:
I also suspect - though I have yet to have it confirmed that deeper reading comes with a deeper understanding of shape. Watching YouTube dans their mouse always seems drawn to the key shape points - especially in the long sequences. Also when playing against the stronger players in my club I've noticed that a) they pause the most when I play a move that is "off" a shape point - which seems to suggest that they didn't consider it very deeply (or they are just taking a moment to morn having to play someone this bad).

The introduction to Davies' "Tesuji" has a guide to reading that I found really helpful. It's a book I would recommend to anyone, anyway. Also, as to visualization practice, I would advise going slowly. I often find I can read five or six moves comfortably, but when I get to ten, I lose track of the first six. Lately, when doing tsumego, I've been trying to read three or four, then stop, and try to really see those first few, almost as if that was the beginning of the problem, and then move on. I'm hoping this way I can increase the number of moves I can easily visualize. Have any stronger players done this?