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L19 2011/2012 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

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Page 11 of 28

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:41 am
by gaius
@danielm: maybe you should look back at the final position of your game vs. Hushfield from last week. By my count, with proper endgame white wins by 1.5 point. So white's resignation seems a little bit unfortunate...

Lesson here: never resign too early! :geek:

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:23 am
by quantumf
gaius wrote:@danielm: maybe you should look back at the final position of your game vs. Hushfield from last week. By my count, with proper endgame white wins by 1.5 point. So white's resignation seems a little bit unfortunate...

Lesson here: never resign too early! :geek:
gaius, can you show your endgame sequence? The best I can find (from white's point of view) is a half point win for black.

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:44 am
by Li Kao
quantumf wrote:
gaius wrote:@danielm: maybe you should look back at the final position of your game vs. Hushfield from last week. By my count, with proper endgame white wins by 1.5 point. So white's resignation seems a little bit unfortunate...

Lesson here: never resign too early! :geek:
gaius, can you show your endgame sequence? The best I can find (from white's point of view) is a half point win for black.
It might be possible by winning the ko on the right as last move of the game and correctly abusing blacks weakness in the bottom left. But the part with ko as last move makes my head hurt.

This is only to show the idea. Both players are a bit slack and I didn't play out the ko fight.

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:01 am
by gaius
Aaah, I miscounted slightly! White does win, but only by half a point. The trick is that white needs to find the tesuji of exchanging B6 and D8 first, and then playing B7. Then, black has to play twice in their own territory to capture white, which makes a point difference compared to LiKao's variation.

AGA rules uses stone counting, right? I did not take that into account, but it should not matter since white gets the last dame if he uses the B7 semedori. So white does not need to (and should not) start the half point ko. And black should not get the opportunity to start it, since T4 should be white's first dame after playing B7.

I am counting by hand by the way, so I hope I didn't miss a point somewhere...

EDIT: this seems one of the rare cases where stone counting with 7.5 komi produces a different result than Japanese counting with 6.5 komi. Interesting!

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:24 am
by emeraldemon
I got B+1.5:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 4 X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . X O X O X 2 . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O O X O O O O . O 1 X . . . |
$$ | O . . O O . O X O O X O O O . X O . . |
$$ | X O O X O O X X O X X O X O X X X . . |
$$ | X X X X X O X X X X X X X X . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X O O O O X X . . . . X |
$$ | . X . X O . O O X X . O X X X . X . X |
$$ | . . X O O X . X O . X O O X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X O O X . . O O . O X X , . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X X . . . O X . . . . X |
$$ | . . 5 X O . O X O O . O X X X . X X X |
$$ | . 9 . 6 X X O O . O . X O X X . . . X |
$$ | . 7 X X X . . O . O . O O O X X . X X |
$$ | . X O O . X . O . . O O X X X X X X . |
$$ | . 8 X O . . X O . , . O O O . X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O X X O O . O X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O . O X O X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . 0 . . . . . . O X X X X X O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . X O X O X X . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O O X O O O O . O O X . . . |
$$ | O . . O O . O X O O X O O O . X O . . |
$$ | X O O X O O X X O X X O X O X X X . . |
$$ | X X X X X O X X X X X X X X . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X O O O O X X . . . . X |
$$ | . X . X O . O O X X . O X X X . X . X |
$$ | . . X O O X . X O . X O O X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X O O X . . O O . O X X , . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X X . . . O X . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X O 3 O X O O . O X X X . X X X |
$$ | . O . X X X O O . O . X O X X . . . X |
$$ | . O X X X . . O . O . O O O X X . X X |
$$ | . X O O . X . O . . O O X X X X X X . |
$$ | . X X O . . X O . , . O O O . X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O X X O O . O X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O . O X O X O O O . |
$$ | . . . 2 X 1 . . . . . O X X X X X O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black has to spend two moves to capture, but white has to spend a move to protect on the bottom.

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:28 am
by daniel_the_smith
emeraldemon wrote:I got B+1.5:

...

Black has to spend two moves to capture, but white has to spend a move to protect on the bottom.

I think this takes more than two moves to capture. In fact black might lose the race, I didn't read it.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . X O X O X X . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O O X O O O O . O O X . . . |
$$ | O . . O O . O X O O X O O O . X O . . |
$$ | X O O X O O X X O X X O X O X X X . . |
$$ | X X X X X O X X X X X X X X . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X O O O O X X . . . . X |
$$ | . X . X O . O O X X . O X X X . X . X |
$$ | . . X O O X . X O . X O O X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X O O X . . O O . O X X , . . . |
$$ | . 1 X O O . O X X . . . O X . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . O X O O . O X X X . X X X |
$$ | . O . X X X O O . O . X O X X . . . X |
$$ | . O X X X . . O . O . O O O X X . X X |
$$ | . X O O . X . O . . O O X X X X X X . |
$$ | . X X O . . X O . , . O O O . X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O X X O O . O X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O . O X O X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . O X X X X X O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:15 am
by quantumf
daniel_the_smith wrote:
I think this takes more than two moves to capture. In fact black might lose the race, I didn't read it.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . X O X O X X . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O O X O O O O . O O X . . . |
$$ | O . . O O . O X O O X O O O . X O . . |
$$ | X O O X O O X X O X X O X O X X X . . |
$$ | X X X X X O X X X X X X X X . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X O O O O X X . . . . X |
$$ | . X . X O . O O X X . O X X X . X . X |
$$ | . . X O O X . X O . X O O X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X O O X . . O O . O X X , . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X X . . . O X . . . . X |
$$ | . 1 O X O 5 O X O O . O X X X . X X X |
$$ | . O . X X X O O . O . X O X X . . . X |
$$ | . O X X X . . O . O . O O O X X . X X |
$$ | . X O O . X . O . . O O X X X X X X . |
$$ | . X X O . . X O . , . O O O . X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O X X O O . O X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O . O X O X O O O . |
$$ | . . 3 2 4 . . . . . . O X X X X X O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Even if black defends against the capturing race, he will either get E1 or F8. This still seems to be a 1.5 point win (unless SmartGo is counting incorrectly, which is possible).

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:31 am
by emeraldemon
I get W+0.5 if black has to block:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Moves 274 to 283
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X 4 X 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O 3 X O X O X X . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O O X O O O O 5 O O X . . . |
$$ | O . . O O . O X O O X O O O . X O . . |
$$ | X O O X O O X X O X X O X O X X X . . |
$$ | X X X X X O X X X X X X X X . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X O O O O X X . . . . X |
$$ | . X . X O . O O X X . O X X X . X . X |
$$ | . . X O O X . X O . X O O X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X O O X . . O O . O X X , . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X X . . . O X . . . . X |
$$ | . X O X O X O X O O . O X X X . X X X |
$$ | . O 0 X X X O O . O . X O X X . . . X |
$$ | . O X X X 8 . O . O . O O O X X . X X |
$$ | . X O O 7 X 1 O . . O O X X X X X X . |
$$ | . X X O 9 2 X O . , . O O O . X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O X X O O . O X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O . O X O X O O O . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . O X X X X X O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Moves 284 to 292
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O X O X O X X . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O O X O O O O O O O X . . . |
$$ | O . . O O . O X O O X O O O 7 X O . . |
$$ | X O O X O O X X O X X O X O X X X . . |
$$ | X X X X X O X X X X X X X X . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X O O O O X X . . . . X |
$$ | . X . X O . O O X X . O X X X . X . X |
$$ | . . X O O X . X O . X O O X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X O O X . . O O . O X X , . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 O X X . . . O X . . . . X |
$$ | . X 2 X O X O X O O . O X X X . X X X |
$$ | . O X X X X O O . O . X O X X . . . X |
$$ | . O X X X X 1 O . O . O O O X X . X X |
$$ | . X O O O X O O . . O O X X X X X X 6 |
$$ | . X X O O X X O . , . O O O 4 X O O 5 |
$$ | . . X O O X X O O . O X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O . O X O X O O O . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . O X X X X X O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I missed Daniel's move, it seems like the final score is in fact W+0.5

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:32 am
by daniel_the_smith
9 isn't necessary, black still eventually has to capture one of the stones, which will take two moves.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 4 X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . X O X O X 2 . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O O X O O O O . O 1 X . . . |
$$ | O . . O O . O X O O X O O O . X O . . |
$$ | X O O X O O X X O X X O X O X X X . . |
$$ | X X X X X O X X X X X X X X . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X O O O O X X . . . . X |
$$ | . X . X O . O O X X . O X X X . X . X |
$$ | . . X O O X . X O . X O O X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X O O X . . O O . O X X , . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X X . . . O X . . . . X |
$$ | . . 5 X O b O X O O . O X X X . X X X |
$$ | . . . 6 X X O O . O . X O X X . . . X |
$$ | . 7 X X X . . O . O . O O O X X . X X |
$$ | . X O O . X . O . . O O X X X X X X . |
$$ | . 8 X O . . X O . , . O O O . X O O c |
$$ | . . X O O X X O O . O X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O . O X O X O O O . |
$$ | . . 0 9 a . . . . . . O X X X X X O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
White wins by .5

EDIT: added move c, above-- if white doesn't take this first, black will throw in and make a ko for the game.

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:50 am
by Hushfield
This is going to be very interesting. I have no idea what all of you are talking about. And seeing how there's many of you and only one of me, I assume I'm missing something very big, indeed. I counted the score manually. Twice. And I looked at the CGoban score estimate. Black is leading by 25+ points? Why does everybody count this as a very close game? Actually, before white's invasion I counted the game as very close, but at the end position it's not close anymore though, right?

I'm sure I'm making some horrible mistake, but I can only learn. What am I overlooking?

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:03 pm
by Li Kao
Scoring in KGS shows that the game is very close in the end. You can't use SE since it's totally broken when using Area Scoring.

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:10 pm
by Hushfield
Li Kao wrote:[...] Area Scoring.
I'll get me coat...

Thank you for clearing that up.

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:14 pm
by Li Kao
Area scoring does give a result very close to territory scoring. So your manual score still seems to be wrong.

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:26 pm
by Hushfield
That's what I thought, hence my confusion. I said at the end of that game that I was pretty bad at counting, and I have proven that to be more than true ^^ Something to work on.

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:26 pm
by ez4u
daniel_the_smith wrote:9 isn't necessary, black still eventually has to capture one of the stones, which will take two moves.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 4 X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . X O X O X 2 . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O O X O O O O . O 1 X . . . |
$$ | O . . O O . O X O O X O O O . X O . . |
$$ | X O O X O O X X O X X O X O X X X . . |
$$ | X X X X X O X X X X X X X X . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X O O O O X X . . . . X |
$$ | . X . X O . O O X X . O X X X . X . X |
$$ | . . X O O X . X O . X O O X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X O O X . . O O . O X X , . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X X . . . O X . . . . X |
$$ | . . 5 X O b O X O O . O X X X . X X X |
$$ | . . . 6 X X O O . O . X O X X . . . X |
$$ | . 7 X X X . . O . O . O O O X X . X X |
$$ | . X O O . X . O . . O O X X X X X X . |
$$ | . 8 X O . . X O . , . O O O . X O O c |
$$ | . . X O O X X O O . O X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O . O X O X O O O . |
$$ | . . 0 9 a . . . . . . O X X X X X O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
White wins by .5

EDIT: added move c, above-- if white doesn't take this first, black will throw in and make a ko for the game.
After :b10: it seems that White can play :w11: below in sente. Black can not capture at :b12:. So Black plays 12 at "a" and White connects at 12.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . X O X O X X . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O O X O O O O . O O X . . . |
$$ | O . . O O . O X O O X O O O . X O . . |
$$ | X O O X O O X X O X X O X O X X X . . |
$$ | X X X X X O X X X X X X X X . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X O O O O X X . . . . X |
$$ | . X . X O . O O X X . O X X X . X . X |
$$ | . . X O O X . X O . X O O X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X O O X . . O O . O X X , . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X X . . . O X . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X O 1 O X O O . O X X X . X X X |
$$ | . a 7 X X X O O . O . X O X X . . . X |
$$ | . O X X X 6 . O . O . O O O X X . X X |
$$ | . X O O 5 X 4 O . . O O X X X X X X . |
$$ | . X X O . 3 X O . , . O O O . X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O X X O O . O X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O . O X O X O O O . |
$$ | . . X O 2 . . . . . . O X X X X X O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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