#244 Bill vs Ed

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Bill Spight
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Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Post by Bill Spight »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm73
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . . 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X W O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Joaz makes an interesting point that maybe the cut is premature. OTOH, if you are not going to cut, why play the :wc: stone?

Anyway, here is another thought. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm73
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , 1 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Edit: Unhidden.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Bill Spight wrote:...if you are not going to cut, why play the :wc: stone?...


To create the weakness now, in the hopes that he won't respond correctly. If white does too much in the middle, it will become obvious to even a DDK that the most important cutting point is one with central influence.

IOW, the proper sequence is:
1) Create multiple cutting points
2) Watch opponent patch a low priority cutting point
3) Get center strength in sente to support the higher priority cut
4) Cut
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm75
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
( Local time Sun Nov 23, 2014. 10:43 am )
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Aidoneus
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Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Post by Aidoneus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm76
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


No thought, just continuing from my earlier read.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm77
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
( Local time Sun Nov 23, 2014. 11:28 am )
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Bill Spight
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Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Post by Bill Spight »

Aidoneus wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm76
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


No thought, just continuing from my earlier read.


I agree with his play, but Bill should at least consider the solid connection for a second or two. As Krogius pointed out about chess, the sight of the actual board is different from the mental image.

Edit: Unhidden.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Post by Aidoneus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm78
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Still following my earlier read. About to go to bed, anyway!
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm79
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 1 . . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
( Local time Mon Nov 24, 2014. 07:48 am )
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Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Post by Aidoneus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm80
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . 1 O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I also considered playing G10, which I suspect is objectively better--probably with a follow-up at E12 for shape. However, I really want to play P12, and I think enticing White to play G10, will give me P12 in sente and with follow-ups at Q12 and/or P13. And I might even get back to play E12.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Much earlier, the exchange ( :w47: - :b48: ) was quite good for B:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm47
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . 1 a , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Probably should've tried something more adventurous like :white: (a) instead of :w47: .

( Local time: Mon Nov 24, 2014. 11:52 am. )
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Bill Spight
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Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Post by Bill Spight »

Aidoneus wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm80
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . 1 O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I also considered playing G10, which I suspect is objectively better--probably with a follow-up at E12 for shape. However, I really want to play P12, and I think enticing White to play G10, will give me P12 in sente and with follow-ups at Q12 and/or P13. And I might even get back to play E12.


if Black wants to play P-12, there is nothing wrong with doing so right away.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm80
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 3 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O 2 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . a W X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


In fact, the play at "a" does not turn :b80: and :b82: into sente. The threat to capture the White stones is greater without "a" because then the :wc: stone is obviously badly placed. Also, :b84: is a real alternative to "a", since it prepares to attack the :wc: stone if it runs.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm80
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X 1 . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O 2 . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


:b80: here (G-10) is questionable because it invites :w81:, pushing White into the central Black framework.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm80
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . O . . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Cutting White off is where Black would really like to go, but with the strength difference that could end in disaster.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm80
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . W . 1 . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X W W . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


The jump looks practical, because it enlarges the Black framework while attacking the :wc: stones. Note that it also attacks the O-09 stone, as well. :)

Edit: Unhidden.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Uberdude
Judan
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Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Post by Uberdude »

Notice the inefficient empty triangle:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm80
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . 1 O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Black could remove this stone from the board and his position would be almost as good as now, i.e. this move has very little value, has become almost a pass.

Avoiding this empty triangle is why when black extends there, the normal shape is to then extend rather than atari for 74:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm74
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Black now threatens a ladder at a so if white defends there black takes sente, a significant improvement on the game (where he took gote, twice!). It's usually bad to atari the cutting stone like Aidoneus did in the game, particularly if you need to come back and defend your own problem like he (unnecessarily) did with 80. White could try to defend in a more active way as below which leaves black with a cut at a:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm74
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . 3 2 O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . a 1 X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


But better to avoid this cut in the first place by connecting there, using the strength of the wall below. White can't break into the centre, just gets a small reduction.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm72
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . . 1 B . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . 3 X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . 5 2 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


(More advanced) It is also important to notice that white has not connected to the top right group yet, so black can use threats against this, for example if in the fighting on the top side black can get a stone at 1 and white answers in the centre then he can safely block at 3 later to make a big corner (thought white still has clamp), which now becomes practically sente and white ought to connect at 4 (4 is where it is rather than 1 space below to avoid giving black a in sente to protect the corner). Of course in a handicap game white will likely get the huge point of r18 (and in fake sente too!) before black gets to do anything good here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . 3 . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O a |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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skydyr
Oza
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Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Post by skydyr »

paK0 wrote:
Does black even need to be afraid of whites territory? I suck at counting, but it feels like depending on endgame white does not even have that much compared to blacks potential in the center.

Can a stronger player offer an approximate count?

Black has maybe 10 solid on the left and maybe 20-30 solid in the lower right center, plus some big endgame like D9 and a lot of potential. Between all the corners white has maybe 40, possibly 50 if you assume white takes R10. Black is clearly ahead (as is to be expected with the handicap) because he has so much potential in the center of the top half of the board. White doesn't have any clear potential left, but white's been catching up alright, though I usually prefer to take more influence in a handicap game than white did here. The game will probably hinge on what white can do with the K17 stone and how much he can make up in endgame.
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Bill Spight
Honinbo
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Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Post by Bill Spight »

@ Uberdude

Uberdude wrote:
Notice the inefficient empty triangle:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm80
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . 1 O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Black could remove this stone from the board and his position would be almost as good as now, i.e. this move has very little value, has become almost a pass.

{snip}

But better to avoid this cut in the first place by connecting there, using the strength of the wall below. White can't break into the centre, just gets a small reduction.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm72
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . . 1 B . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . 3 X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . 5 2 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Glad that we agree about :b72:. :)

Avoiding this empty triangle is why when black extends there, the normal shape is to then extend rather than atari for 74:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm74
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . W . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Black now threatens a ladder at a


Except that :wc: is a ladder breaker. (A rare oversight.)

Edit: Unhidden.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm81
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
( Local time Tue Nov 25, 2014. 07:58 am )
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