Life In 19x19

Posted: **Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:35 am**

@white

Ok, I think we probably all agree that extending is too nice to black, so we can throw this one out:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Neither of you mentioned the one-space low pincer. It's the one I know best, so I'd like at least consider it, good or bad.
I think black going into the corner is good for us because of the top 4th line stone:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

There are also sequences like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 2 . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

In that case black is giving up the left to break up the top, I still think that's a good result for us because we have sente to attack the left stones or come back to the right side.

If black wants to emphasize the left (which I think is their best plan), black can one-space jump. There are different lines, I've been looking a bit at this (newer?) varation lately:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 3 . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 9 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 0 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm24 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Black definitely gets to reinforce the two black stones this way, but it's a wide gap, and we build something nice-ish on the top.

I don't know the high pincers as well, I get the vague sense they are less common because they are more special-purpose moves, but maybe this is one of those special-purpose cases. The only joseki(?) I know is this one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 . O . 3 . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I'm not sure what white's followup should be in that case, maybe something like 'a' or 'b' to keep them split? It seems workable, not really sure. Andreyl showed this one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 6 . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The first followup that comes to me is black attaching underneath:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm19 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 8 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 1 O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not sure I really like this for white, but maybe there's a better way to play.

The two-space pincer I know even less, but I do feel just instinctually that black has a nice keima:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Not really sure if that's a crazy move for black or not, maybe we can just diagonal move?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 5 . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This also looks like a running fight for us, but black's lower-left stones settle so easily that I feel bad.

OK, sorry for writing so much without really coming to a conclusion, but I guess I'd like to have a bit more idea what we expect from each pincer before we pick one.
There are also more splitting moves like a,b,c:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a b . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

These have the advantage of weakening the two black stones directly, which I like, at the cost of not putting much pressure on the white stone. I guess we have to ask about something like:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I think that might still be better for us than a closer pincer, but I'm not really sure.

Posted: **Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:51 am**

@white

I've been thinking about this a bit, and I think I actually prefer this diagram:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

A followup by black on the left is practically assured, and black is still left thin there. Black can't solidify or entirely fix the left in one move. This gives white sente to create a nice framework on top, and we can keep sente to make the right side solid. White has no weak groups and only one thin position, while black has 2-3 thin extensions.

White also has built more potential on the top than black has on the side.

A pincer, by contrast, invites a complex fight when black counterpincers and/or double-approaches, and could just end up making black's two stones on the left look good as they stabilize a counterattack.

At the very least, this diagram keeps the position simple and the game balanced going into the middle-game, and white gets the last big point.

In sum, I no longer support a pincer.

Posted: **Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:12 pm**

@white

Posted: **Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:03 pm**

emeraldemon wrote:@white
I like simple. Maybe this is a bad attitude, but I feel like black made a mistake in leaving the two stones on the bottom left to play a slowish move and I'd like to take advantage of that. What do you think about splitting like in my last diagram?

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:03 am**

@white

I don't like the outcomes of low one space pincer,either way it feels mediacore
as for the late diagram

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I don't see a good plan if black jumps in with a or b
I would rather not start a fight near so many black stones.

My main reason to pincer is to prevent blacks huge potential on the left side

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Of course we can try to invade later but still,it feels like black got a lot of potential compared to us.

We can the do the splitting idea,I actually prefer to complicate this game

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:55 am**

andreyl wrote:@white
I don't like the outcomes of low one space pincer,either way it feels mediacore
as for the late diagram
$$Wcm14
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm14 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I don't see a good plan if black jumps in with a or b
I would rather not start a fight near so many black stones.

I'm fine with playing a bit closer. I just threw :w18:

in there for the general idea. If we play as tight as a two space extension, for example, we still have miai to expand on either side. I suspect the three-space extension is fine, at least, cramping black a bit.

We have to deal with this stone somehow in the future, so leaving the upper left with sente to do so seems like a good plan to me.

My main reason to pincer is to prevent blacks huge potential on the left side
$$Wcm14
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . d . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm14 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . d . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

(note: diagram slightly modified)
Of course we can try to invade later but still,it feels like black got a lot of potential compared to us.

We can the do the splitting idea,I actually prefer to complicate this game

In this diagram, I feel we still have good invasion potential at A, B, and C, while D or thereabouts is also quite large. If black plays, say, C to fix the aji, we can still take D to threaten A again, and black has had to take gote for it. We can follow up with splitting up the black stones on the bottom, or something else, but white has made more on top than black has on the left, so it seems good for white locally. Once the right side is stable, I think white is ahead on points and has similar future potential to black.

I thought the keima left a good low-high balance on the top, but the one-space jump also seems playable and aims to limit black more, as a compromise. It does leave black more invasion potential on the top, though.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:58 pm**

@white

Posted: **Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:10 pm**

emeraldemon wrote:@white
I feel undecided. I can see just extending, I also like the split. Maybe it comes down to how easily we can invade the left vs making profit on top. I will try to work over the board tonight, experiment with both.

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:57 am**

@white

I think I like this best, we can pick a or b to followup, black is more or less forced to take the corner I think:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 b . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I think extending would be mostly even for both sides, but I think splitting gives us groups to attack.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

We do get sente in the above diagram, but I think white's top framework has at least as many holes as black's on the left, and pointwise it seems about even. I think I'd rather take c10 and have pressure on those pesky black stones in the lower left.

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:59 am**

@white

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:06 pm**

@white

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 3 . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . 4 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Since you two both want to split, I'll concede it, but I'd rather play high so that black can't play as in the diagram above.

3-space high pincer work for everyone?

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:56 pm**

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:03 pm**

Posted: **Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:17 am**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:53 am**

@BLACK:

My initial reaction is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 5 . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It probably leads to this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . c c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c O 6 1 . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...where we get two of 'a', 'b', and 'c'.

Life In 19x19

Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game