Life In 19x19

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Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=152

Page 12 of 51

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:29 am
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 50A: W 24, B 19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , W . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Okay, we have three options. We can play the empty triangle to try to save those three stones (an uphill battle at best), we can tenuki to a big point, or we can sacrifice those three stones cleanly. Option one lets black build the top right further, which is just too nice to them. So I am torn between J16 (which seems to almost force black to capture while we build an outside (small) wall, and taking a double wing on the right to make J16 and P16 miai. Let's have a look.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 49A: Option 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X 1 , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O B . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 49A: Option 2a
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X 4 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X 6 , . . . . 2 , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O B . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 49A: Option 2b
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . 3 , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O B . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


At first glance, I had liked option 1 best, but option 2's looking really good to me. I think this is preferable, as it leaves our options mostly open while taking the big point.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:18 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
I do not approve.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 50A: W 24, B 21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , C . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Younger brother's move, while big, does not address all of the life-and-death issues in the left/middle of the board. As the pros tell us, play urgent before big.

Saving the cutting stones with 1 looks really ugly at first. But black gets their own share of ugliness in return. It may be far worse for black than it initially looks. ( We already know from previous analysis that because of white's last play, the cut at J16 is vicious. )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 50A: W 24, B 19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If black immediately goes back to cover both the invasion and the cut, it looks like this:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 50A: W 24, B 19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . d . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . c . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a a , . O . . b , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . a . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now moves around 'a' and 'b' start looking ominous, as do 'c' and 'd'. I'm not sure how black will handle them all.

Going one more gets more for black in the upper right, but it is worse in the middle.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 50A: W 24, B 19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White has a nasty placement with 1:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 50A: W 24, B 19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X 3 X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X 5 4 . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


...or it can go like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 50A: W 24, B 19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X 6 X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . 5 . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X 7 2 X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . 1 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:21 pm
by Magicwand
wow.. black will not capture that 3 stone now so why change the move and pay the penalty????

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:52 pm
by shapenaji
Approved

I'm not sure I understand why Violence approved this one, even assuming that you could capture the three stones (I don't see any nets working here...), we could easily sacrifice the three and gut all of black's potential on top.

An easy way for it to progress:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 49A: W 24, B 19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O B . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


not giving up those 3 is a matter of style for me... I'd much rather have this upcoming fight, I see black with 2 iffy looking groups, and us with one.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:15 am
by Gresil
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 51A: W 24, B 21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X B . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There be two options.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 51A: W 24, B 21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X b . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 51A: W 24, B 21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Starting with :w4: (wherever it should be—I probably don't have quite the right move here) white gets to taco my center group.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 51A: W 24, B 21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




This looks more robust, and seems to work better with F6. White can't immediately put either of my flanking groups in trouble.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:41 am
by topazg
Not approved

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 51B: W 24, B 23
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . B . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X C . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Leave them heavy for now. I want to attack them, and our group is tentative, in the middle, but they can escape, and our F16 stones are sacrificable if we have to. We don't want to, because they are important cutting stones, but it is not entirely out of the question.However, we do want to develop that top side, and protecting this cut seems bigger.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:36 pm
by Violence
Approved.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:52 pm
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 52A: W 26, B 21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . B . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . W . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Topazg, I think you added the prisoners to the wrong bucket. I swapped them over.

Okay, if the plan is to save this group, I'm going to get it out. The sector line containing it is diagonal, so the fastest way out is the opposite diagonal. I kind of wanted H13, to lean on that lone stone, but that stone has tons of help and they can hane and pressure us more. I am still a bit concerned that we will be giving them points on the top, though we do have them half-undercut, so they would have to take gote to seal us out of that side.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:12 am
by unkx80
Gresil wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 51A: W 24, B 21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X B . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There be two options.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 51A: W 24, B 21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X b . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 51A: W 24, B 21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Starting with :w4: (wherever it should be—I probably don't have quite the right move here) white gets to taco my center group.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 51A: W 24, B 21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This looks more robust, and seems to work better with F6. White can't immediately put either of my flanking groups in trouble.


For Gresil after the game:

Neither of the two options you suggested is good.

Image

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:33 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Approved. More later.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:15 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Joaz Banbeck wrote: More later.


Let's assume that white tenukis ( and I would love to tenuki to 'a' ) Then we get caught in a net like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O 2 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Note that black's most recent move at K16 makes the difference. Before it was there, the net did not work. White could cut his way out:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X 5 . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O 2 3 7 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X 8 1 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 0 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


Ok, Shapenaji, it is yours now.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:37 am
by shapenaji
Approved.
We have to run out now, these are very valuable stones, if they can settle, black will have 2 weak groups... that's our goal.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O b . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


note that "a" and "b" were also possibilities, however, both of them strengthen black, and we're not sure exactly what we want to attack yet, so we'd rather not fix black on either side.

That being said, "a" is the better of the two,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X 1 . 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


this way is solid, but as you can see, black easily fixes himself on both sides now.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:18 am
by Gresil
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 53A: W 26, B 21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . B . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Comments coming in a minute.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:33 am
by Gresil
I saw two conceivable options, and now that I started typing up these diagrams I wonder if I didn't make a misevaluation and choose the wrong one.

The first option looks nice, with adequate-looking shapes flanking the white group:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O 1 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 5 6 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



The move I chose seems to lead to a more vague situation with less solid shape.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . 1 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Oh well.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:51 am
by topazg
Not approved:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 53A: W 28, B 21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . C . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Actually, I have sympathy for that move. It's a bit toothpasty, but it's a good idea to launch an attack, and I think it's probably the correct side for it. However, there's no attack if White can build a big counter, and I'm wanting to make the general Black board-stronginess better. As well as connecting (more or less) to the central group with our remaining weak group, and sealing White into the left, I'm also aiming at moves like H4 and making any attack on that central White group that bit harder for White to handle.

Of course, with only a 1 point penalty, Violence may well explain why I'm talking nonsense.
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