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Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:54 am
by fwiffo
Sorry, I haven't had time to look at this as thoroughly as I'd like, but I don't want to hold up the game.
Black suggestion:
$$Bcm15 Move - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm15 Move - B:0 - W:0Jedo suggested a move in the corner that I'm happy with, Jordus is pondering jumping, so I'll suggest leaning to get out.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:00 am
by Chew Terr
W move suggestion
$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0I still like the cap at 3 for the next move. I debated between this and the shoulder hit, and prefer this. We don't have to seal B in, but any strength we can get here is good.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:15 am
by tj86430
W suggestion:
$$Wc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$WcSince we didn't tenuki last time, we can not tenuki now. This makes good shape for our weak group while attacking the lone black stone
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:27 am
by topazg
@chew:
How do you plan on handling this?
$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:44 am
by Joaz Banbeck
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:50 am
by gaius
@observers only
topazg wrote: @chew:
How do you plan on handling this?
$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0That doesn't seem such a huge problem if white does this instead:
$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:51 am
by topazg
For observers:
Also, in chew's sequence (I'm really liking that attack if we get it, but I think
won't happen), I prefer this:
$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:04 am
by Chew Terr
topazg wrote: @chew:
How do you plan on handling this?
$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0
$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0Glad you asked. I had a look at this before my move suggestion, but I decided it wasn't a threat, so I didn't post about it previously. Obviously, we have a couple of options here. Let's check them out.
a:
$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0Here, we go along entirely with what B is pushing for. If we do this, we just focus on getting our group out. While it gives W 4th line strength below, it feels awfully toothpastey. I feel like black won't do this immediately, as it may end up hurting them more than helping
And my personal favorite, b:
$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0$$Wcm25 Move 25 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm25 Move 25 - B:0 - W:0Notably, after 27, black cannot atari us down, or they will lose one of the groups it cuts (via capturing race or ladder). I could be missing something here, but every variation on this seems to give us something.
If we got into this situation, I would suggest 'b'. Even if we die small in the corner, we'll get a ton of thickness, potentially seal W into the right side small, or otherwise come out of this fine. While I'm not sure if Topazg can post much more specifically about problems with this analysis, I would appreciate it, Red and TJ, if ya'all would have a look at these diagrams and let me know if you see a gaping error. Thanks!
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:11 am
by topazg
For observers only:
FWIW, my answer to my own question is, there is no problem :
$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0"a" and "b" are now miai...:
$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0Black should never allow this if he is to play
, and the alternative cripples Black's lower side
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:50 am
by Redundant
Thoughts:
This is locally not great, but gives us a severe attack on the lone black stone. The peep is mostly neutralized by this.
$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0Playing here doesn't work very well. After 4, 5 is pretty much forced, or the right side group gets disemboweled. Also, if black saves his right stone, we won't be comfortable, and we also owe a move around a.
$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:54 am
by Joaz Banbeck
fwiffo wrote: ...
Black suggestion:
$$Bcm15 Move - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm15 Move - B:0 - W:0Jedo suggested a move in the corner that I'm happy with, Jordus is pondering jumping, so I'll suggest leaning to get out.
To teammates and observers:
This, BTW, is a good example of what I was referring to in my previous post about invader vs pincer.
A shoulder hit is an attacking move. It is usually played with
the assumption that if both players extend, ours will be strong but theirs will be heavy . If the board were more like this, it would work:
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc ...or it would work like this:
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc But if the situation is getting tight enough that one must 'get out' then a defensive move would have been more approriate, probably an attachment like this:
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$BcThis post is a bit redundant, since Jedo's suggested move was essential to preserve the corner stone, so I would not have chosen Q10 anyway. But it seems a perfect example of the 'invader vs pincer' issue.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:00 am
by Joaz Banbeck
Shaddy wrote: An idea I had:
$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0If black submits to the press, w can double hane over the two stones. If black pushes the other way in response to the shoulder hit, it will revert to a one space low pincer joseki which is favorable to white because r11 is perfectly placed.
This assumes that we would be foolish enough to make our group heavy with 15. We would have almost certainly attached to R11 instead.
To teammates:
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:20 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
I hear that the desertion rate increases prior to big battles...
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:51 pm
by fwiffo
Who's move is it?
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:17 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
fwiffo wrote: Who's move is it?
No, it's not Who's move; it's Redundant's.
won't happen), I prefer this:
, and the alternative cripples Black's lower side