110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Kirby
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Kirby »

@EdLee
EdLee wrote:I think either A or B, but not C.
Kirby wrote:maybe it would have been fine to do even this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Var C
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . X X . . O . . |
$$. . . O X . X 2 X . . |
$$. X X X O X O X 1 . . |
$$. . X O O . O O 3 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Var A
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . X X . . O . . |
$$. . . O X . X . X . . |
$$. X X X O X O X . . . |
$$. . X O O . O O 1 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Var B
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . X X . . O . . |
$$. . . O X . X 2 X . . |
$$. X X X O X O X 1 . . |
$$. . X O O . O O . 3 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------[/go]



"Var B" is a good sequence sometimes, but I don't think that it's a good move here. If we play "Var C", we threaten to link up with the single stone, later:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Var C
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . X X . . W . . |
$$. . . O X . X 2 X 5 . |
$$. X X X O X O X 1 . . |
$$. . X O O . O O 3 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------[/go]


"Var B" makes things harder for white:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Var C
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . X X . . O . . |
$$. . . O X . X 2 X . . |
$$. X X X O X O X 1 4 . |
$$. . X O O . O O 5 3 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------[/go]


Above, if black does tenuki, the same move that was good for "Var C" doesn't work as well in "Var B":
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Var C - black 6 is tenuki
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . X X . . W 8 . |
$$. . . O X . X 2 X 7 . |
$$. X X X O X O X 1 4 . |
$$. . X O O . O O 5 3 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------[/go]


The marked stone gets cut off. In "Var B", there is no such problem, unless black moves first in "Var C", in which case we get the same result:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Var C
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . X X . . O . . |
$$. . . O X . X 2 X . . |
$$. X X X O X O X 1 4 . |
$$. . X O O . O O 3 5 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------[/go]


So I think that for the differentiating case, "Var C" is better than "Var B". The only exception to this might be if black simply played down:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Var C
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . X X . . O . . |
$$. . . O X . X 2 X 4 . |
$$. X X X O X O X 1 . . |
$$. . X O O . O O 3 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------[/go]


In which case, "Var C" is pretty much the same as "Var A":
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Var A
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . X X . . O . . |
$$. . . O X . X . X 4 . |
$$. X X X O X O X . . . |
$$. . X O O . O O 1 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------[/go]



I think that the move in "Var B" is a good one to remember, but I do not see a reason that "Var B" is better than "Var C" in this case. In fact, I think that "Var C" is better than "Var B", for the reason mentioned above. I'm actually inclined to prefer "Var C" to "Var A" as well if I am going to give up sente.

So I guess I don't see a reason that "Var C" is inferior in any real way, except for your stating it.



Also, the difference between D and E (the game) is huge-- 20+ points??
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Var D: :b2: tenuki
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . X X . . O . . |
$$. . . O X . X . X 3 . |
$$. X X X O X O X . . . |
$$. . X O O . O O 1 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Var E: The game
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . X X . . O . . |
$$. . . O X . X X X . . |
$$. X X X O X O X W 3 . |
$$. . X O O . O O 1 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . 2 4 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------[/go]



I agree that it's big. I thought breaking into the moyo was also big. It's possible that breaking into the moyo was not as big as I had thought, but it's hard for me to calculate the value of the sente that I got.

But if I should have responded locally, I'm still inclined to respond as in "Var C", above.
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Kirby »

@EdLee
I suppose it could be argued that :w3:, below, also threatens to connect, just as "Var C" did, above;
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Var B
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . X X . . W . . |
$$. . . O X . X 2 X 5 . |
$$. X X X O X O X 1 . . |
$$. . X O O . O O . 3 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------[/go]


So in that sense, both "Var C" and "Var B" allow for either the connection, or the following picture:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Var C
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . X X . . O . . |
$$. . . O X . X X X . . |
$$. X X X O X O X O X . |
$$. . X O O . O O O O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------[/go]


So in terms of board positions, we can compare this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Var B
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . X X . . O . . |
$$. . . O X . X X X O . |
$$. X X X O X O X O . . |
$$. . X O O . O O . O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------[/go]


to this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Var C
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . X X . . W . . |
$$. . . O X . X X X O . |
$$. X X X O X O X O . . |
$$. . X O O . O O O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------[/go]


considering this, I would say that "Var B" is, perhaps, better shape. But practically speaking, I cannot see a reason why "Var B" is better in this scenario.

There is also one other consideration to take into account. If we play "Var B", black will almost invariably play this way:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Var B
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . X X . . W . . |
$$. . . O X . X 2 X . . |
$$. X X X O X O X 1 4 . |
$$. . X O O . O O . 3 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------[/go]


This takes away the opportunity to connect with the marked white stone.

But if we play "Var B", there is a chance that black will not respond, and white will get to connect. I guess a lot of that depends on if this is sente for black:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Var C
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . X X . . O . . |
$$. . . O X . X X X . . |
$$. X X X O X O X O B . |
$$. . X O O . O O O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------[/go]


Because, with "Var B", the marked black move is definitely sente for black - so we cannot hope to connect.

So I suppose I cannot see a practical reason that "Var B" is better than "Var C", and a possible benefit of playing "Var C" to "Var B".
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Marcus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count: :black: :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O O |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . 3 . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X X X O X O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ok, I made my choice ... really the only choice I have.

This move cuts off a huge chunk of the center. Now I believe Kirby will aim to reduce from the top ... my prediction:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count: :black: :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O O |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . 7 |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 9 |
$$ | . . X . X . 4 . . . . . . . . O . 6 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 8 |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . 3 . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X X X O X O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this is my best plan ... it gives me a group to attack ... then I can look at the weakness at E15 ... maybe I can do something there soon.
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Kirby »

I think he played the biggest spot. I'm not too worried, I guess... But I should probably figure out a way to avoid allowing him too many points in the area.
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Kirby »

By the way, Marcus. How do you feel about the game? I thought I'd return the question, since you asked me.
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Marcus »

Kirby wrote:By the way, Marcus. How do you feel about the game? I thought I'd return the question, since you asked me.


To be honest, I've put myself into an uncomfortable position here. I'm usually accused of taking too many territorial moves, and leave my opponent with too much outside influence ... ending poorly for me. As you can see, I've tried to play for more influence in this game. I feel like I've had some success early on in the game, but it's very clear that I have no idea what to do with influence. :mrgreen:

I still feel like I have some good moves to make ... but I feel about 10 points behind at the moment (assuming a decent amount of reduction in my favour; double that to 20 points and that's about where my "pessimist" estimate ends up).
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count: :black: :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O O |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , 4 . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . X . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X X X O X O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My aim is to reduce black's central moyo. This was the best move I could think of to do this.
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Marcus »

Thinking ... also been sick w/ a nasty cold ... might be a day or two before I move ...

Crazy stuff. I really need to read here, and figure out what my optimal defense is. I really want to cut the large knight's move here and isolate :w84: ... but it's a well placed stone so that's going to be difficult.

I also don't really want to ignore it ...
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Post by EdLee »

Marcus wrote:also been sick w/ a nasty cold
Nasty indeed. :oops:
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Marcus »

Cold almost gone, just a nagging cough left.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count: :black: :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O O |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . 5 X . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X X X O X O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Kirby's moves are difficult to answer ... I really wanted to tenuki, but I couldn't. I also would have preferred to block the other way ... maybe I'll get to do that later. I really hope that Kirby responds. I don't see why he wouldn't ...

Anyways, revised plan:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm86 Prisoner Count: :black: :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O O |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . 4 |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 6 |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . 3 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 1 O . . . . , . 7 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X X . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . a . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X X X O X O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm leaving the jump to a ... which Kirby will likely jump to once he gets the chance. I really hope this works out for me. :D
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Shaddy »

Observers:

COWARDICE. Cutting the large knight's move is the only imaginable play.
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O O |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 6 , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X X . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X X X O X O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can't say I'm not pleased with this reduction. I can't think of a way to have done it better. There may have been a way - I'd be happy to hear it from kibitzers.

In any case, I'm sure my stones will have no problem living, and black's points have been limited in the area. Life is pretty good.

I thought about playing this move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O O |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , O W . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X X . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X X X O X O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But it feels like the wrong direction:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O O |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . C C C 2 O 1 . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X X . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X X X O X O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't like black taking the points in the marked area so easily.

So I will go in that direction myself. :-D
be immersed
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yithril
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by yithril »

Wow, Black didn't cut. Just plain Wow :P Black will make 20 points in the center and be severely overconcentrated. This is a huge success for White. Black should attack White with a pincer but it's not going to be a clean attack and the game'll get messy.


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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Marcus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O O |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . 7 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X X . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X X X O X O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


OK, so much pain in the center ... I want to start trying to force the game to my own flow ... gotta catch that flow ... :D
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Looking at this game for the first time... Isn't black waaaay behind? Where are his points?
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