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115 - robinz v. 1986

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=3740

Page 12 of 31

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 8:57 am
by EdLee
Hidden until this fight is finished,
mw42 wrote:This seems acceptable for black.
B would like to do better; hopefully robinz is reading this also:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$---------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . X . O . O O O . |
$$X . . . . X X X O . |
$$. . . X . . . X X . |
$$O . . . . . . O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . 2 . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . 1 X . . . |
$$, O . X . . . X . . |
$$. . . X O O O X . . |
$$. . O O X X O O . . |
$$. . . . O X O X O . |
$$. . . . O X X X X . |
$$. . . O X . . . . . |
$$, . . . . . X . . . |
$$. O . . O . . X . . |
$$. . . . . . O . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------[/go]

Re:

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 9:00 am
by mw42
EdLee wrote:Hidden until this fight is finished,
mw42 wrote:This seems acceptable for black.
B would like to do better; hopefully robinz is reading this also:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$---------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . X . O . O O O . |
$$X . . . . X X X O . |
$$. . . X . . . X X . |
$$O . . . . . . O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . 2 . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . 1 X . . . |
$$, O . X . . . X . . |
$$. . . X O O O X . . |
$$. . O O X X O O . . |
$$. . . . O X O X O . |
$$. . . . O X X X X . |
$$. . . O X . . . . . |
$$, . . . . . X . . . |
$$. O . . O . . X . . |
$$. . . . . . O . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------[/go]


Indeed, after counting I see that black must do better.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 9:35 am
by robinz
Wow, I'm looking forward to reading all this afterwards :D

Meanwhile, I have emerged with a move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm103 prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . 1 O X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Actually, this wasn't as hard a decision as I initially thought it might be. The first thing I had to decide was whether or not I should respond locally here. My last move was definitely sente against the corner - I can kill it now with the monkey jump to S19, and almost certainly other moves too. But if in return white frees his big blob of stones in the centre right, presumably by killing my 2 cutting stones, then that must be bigger than the corner, and I can't allow it to happen. Sadly, I think he can - he does have a shortage of liberties at the moment, but can alleviate that with, amongst other things, the bamboo joint at O11. Admittedly, and despite my earlier comment, I haven't tried to read this in any detail - it's just too hard for me. But I'd be very surprised if my cutting stones could escape, or if I could trap his group and start removing liberties quickly enough. (He also has S9 to obtain more liberties.)

Well, they say that the the point where the opponent wants to play is the point I should play - so that's what I've done. I know my knowledge of basic shapes is pretty poor (probably even more so than my generally low standard of go ;-)), but this really does feel like what people call the "shape point". Basically, P12 and P10 seem to be miai to stop white's northward push, and white can't atari P10 from either side because of his shortage of liberties. Meanwhile it also gives more liberties to my cutting stones, and will help them to connect to other friendly stones (notably the R10 group - which could get into trouble later, but I think I should be OK, especially given the already-much-mention white shortage of liberties). I'm pretty sure this is the right local move, but I won't know until later if the experts above agree with me :lol:

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 4:25 pm
by EdLee
robinz, Hidden until upper right corner finished,
robinz wrote:I can kill it now with the monkey jump...
Study this life-and-death:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$-------------
$$. . . . . . |
$$. X 2 . . . |
$$O 1 O O O . |
$$. X X X O 3 |
$$. . . X X . |
$$. . . O . . |
$$. . . . . . |[/go]

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 6:56 pm
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm104 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X 1 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



*Fight Mode*

#1

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm104 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . 4 O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . 9 5 3 2 . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . 6 7 8 X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X 1 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


#2

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm104 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . 7 5 2 4 . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . 8 9 X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . 3 , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X 1 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


#3

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm104 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . 8 O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . 7 9 . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . 4 2 5 6 . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . 3 , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X 1 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


#4

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm104 prisoner count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . 6 5 7 . 9 . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . 2 3 4 . 8 . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X 1 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


#5

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm104 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . 4 3 . 7 8 . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . 6 X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X 5 . 9 X 2 . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X 1 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



this should be enough sequences to get started :)

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:14 pm
by EdLee
Hidden until this fight is over,
:b1: is the only move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$-------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . X . . . . |
$$. X . O . O O O . |
$$. . . . X X X O . |
$$. . X . . . X X . |
$$. . . . . . O . . |
$$. . 7 6 . . . . . |
$$. . 5 4 1 3 . . . |
$$. . . X O X . . . |
$$O . X . 2 , X . . |
$$. . X O O O X O . |
$$. O O X X O O . . |
$$. . . O X O X O . |
$$. . . O X X X X . |
$$. . O X . . . . . |
$$. . . . . X . . . |
$$O . . O . . X . . |
$$. . . . . O . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------+[/go]

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 9:14 pm
by EdLee
Hidden until this fight is over,
(For beginners also.) Note all the (impossible) broken shapes for B in the following variations.
Again, we go back to the basic problem of not seeing/knowing the broken shape (re: Posts 46, 57, 88):
1986 wrote:#1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$---------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . X . O . O O O . |
$$X . . . . X X X O . |
$$. . . X . . . X X . |
$$O . . . . . X O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . O O @ Y . . . |
$$. Y @ Y Y @ Y . . . |
$$, O . X . . , X . . |
$$. . . X O O O X O . |
$$. . O O X X O O . . |
$$. . . . O X O X O . |
$$. . . . O X X X X . |
$$. . . O X . . . . . |
$$, . . . . . X . . . |
$$. O . . O . . X . . |
$$. . . . . . O . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$--------------------+[/go]
#3
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$---------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . X . O . O O O . |
$$X . . . . X X X O . |
$$. . . X . . . X X . |
$$O . . . . . Y @ . . |
$$. . . . . . @ @ . . |
$$. . . . X Y @ Y . . |
$$. . . . X O Y . . . |
$$, O . X . O , X . . |
$$. . . X O O O X O . |
$$. . O O X X O O . . |
$$. . . . O X O X O . |
$$. . . . O X X X X . |
$$. . . O X . . . . . |
$$, . . . . . X . . . |
$$. O . . O . . X . . |
$$. . . . . . O . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$--------------------+[/go]
#4
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$-------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . X . . . . |
$$. X . O . O O O . |
$$. . . . X X X O . |
$$. . X . . . X X . |
$$. . . . . . O . . |
$$. . . Y @ @ . O . |
$$. . . Y @ Y . X . |
$$. . . Y @ Y . . . |
$$O . X . . , X . . |
$$. . X O O O X O . |
$$. O O X X O O . . |
$$. . . O X O X O . |
$$. . . O X X X X . |
$$. . O X . . . . . |
$$. . . . . X . . . |
$$O . . O . . X . . |
$$. . . . . O . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------+[/go]
#5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$---------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . X . O . O O O . |
$$X . . . . X X X O . |
$$. . . X . . . X X . |
$$O . . . . . . O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . Y @ . @ Y . . |
$$. . . Y X @ X . . . |
$$, O . Y @ . @ Y X . |
$$. . . Y @ @ @ Y @ . |
$$. . O O X X @ @ . . |
$$. . . . O X O X O . |
$$. . . . O X X X X . |
$$. . . O X . . . . . |
$$, . . . . . X . . . |
$$. O . . O . . X . . |
$$. . . . . . O . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$--------------------+[/go]

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 9:44 am
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm105 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . 1 , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Is this the right move? I honestly have no idea :lol: Indeed, I don't even know for sure if I need to respond locally (although I'm 90% sure I do need to). This move is made in the interests of linking up my stones, either my capturing white's P11 stone, or by playing Q10 (and possibly O10 later). White is still short enough on liberties not to be able to prevent this. More worrying is that white may well extend with P11, and then try to use the aji of R14 to try to live. I think I ought to be able to prevent this from happening, but, as always, it's time to fasten the seatbelts :D

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 1:42 pm
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm106 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X 1 . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I don't think i explained these sequences last time but
these are my attempts at reading ahead :)

#1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm106 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . 8 5 X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O 7 X 1 X 2 X 4 . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . 9 X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O 3 . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


#1-2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm106 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . 9 . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . 5 6 . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . 4 X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X 1 X 2 X 8 . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O 3 . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


#2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm106 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . 4 . 6 . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . 9 8 . . X O X 5 7 . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X 2 X 1 X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O 3 . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


#2-2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm106 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O 9 O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . 7 5 . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . 8 . . X O X 4 . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X 2 X 1 X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O 3 . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


#3
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm106 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X 2 X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


-that sequence is no good

#4
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm106 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X 6 |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O 3 4 |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X . 8 9 |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X 2 X 1 . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


#4-2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm106 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . 6 . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . 7 X O X 4 2 . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X 5 X 3 X 1 . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


i dont know how to do ko yet on diagrams
but 113 is at p10 and i play p17 to start a ko fight

#4-3
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm106 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O 4 O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X 6 |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O 5 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . 3 . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X 2 X 1 . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


#5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm106 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . 7 9 4 . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . 6 5 X O X 1 . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O 8 X 3 X , X 2 . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


#5-2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm106 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 7 . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . 8 5 6 . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X 1 4 . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X 2 X 3 . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


#5-3
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm106 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X 1 . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X 4 X 3 X 2 . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


#5-4
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm106 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . 6 . 4 . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . 7 X O X 1 2 . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X 5 X 3 X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


followed by a ko fight

lets see where his next move is going to be
the suspense is chilling :)

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 3:17 pm
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm107 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X 1 X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Hmm, more unexpectedness. And, whatever the outcome here, he's certainly resisting harder than I thought possible :sad:

I don't have time now for deep analysis, or a long comment - but in the little time I've had to look at this position, this move has appeared almost completely forced. O10 is the only other move I haven't been able to more or less instantly refute, but that feels less solid than this one on several grounds. I have little worry for my own stones any more, but the question is whether white has created enough aji to be able to live. I hope not, and would still guess not, but right now I wouldn't feel able to bet very much on it...

Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 6:14 am
by EdLee
Hidden until this fight is over,
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$---------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . X . O . O O O . |
$$X . . . . X X X O . |
$$. . . X . . . X X . |
$$O . . . . . . O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . 5 8 2 4 . |
$$. . . . X O X O 3 . |
$$, O . X 6 X X X 1 . |
$$. . . X O O O X O . |
$$. . O O X X O O 7 . |
$$. . . . O X O X O . |
$$. . . . O X X X X . |
$$. . . O X . . . . . |
$$, . . . . . X . . . |
$$. O . . O . . X . . |
$$. . . . . . O . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$--------------------+[/go]

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 7:49 am
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm108 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X 1 . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


see previous post for variations
i'll post some more sequences next move
im guessing he plays R12, maybe i will set up a ko

its breakfast time over here so im getting my grub on currently
:)

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 11:38 am
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm109 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



This seems to work well enough. Some simple reading:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm109 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . c b 1 a . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O 2 . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


White quite plainly still doesn't have space for 2 eyes for his group (8 stones on the second line are necessary, and white can only get 6 even if he plays a in sente. My two stones at R7 and R9 also provide help in falsifying a potential eye if necessary). Note that the atari at b is met by a counter atari at c, so this doesn't help white either.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Fri May 20, 2011 1:25 am
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm110 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O 1 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


im taking it one step at a time here 
im walking on thin ice 

no variations here- i must be jynxing myself they never work


his best response in this situation is t15
if he decides on t14 he will indirectly 
help me connect with my chubby dragon

Posted: Fri May 20, 2011 2:03 am
by EdLee
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$---------------------
$$. . . . . . 7 8 . . |
$$. . . . . X 4 . 9 . |
$$. . X . O 3 O O O 6 |
$$X . . . . X X X O 5 |
$$. . . X . . . X X 2 |
$$O . . . . . . O O . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . X . . |
$$. . . . X O X W 1 . |
$$, O . X . X X X O . |
$$. . . X O O O X O . |
$$. . O O X X O O . . |
$$. . . . O X O X O . |
$$. . . . O X X X X . |
$$. . . O X . . . . . |
$$, . . . . . X . . . |
$$. O . . O . . X . . |
$$. . . . . . O . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . |
$$--------------------+[/go]
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