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L19 2011/2012 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=4291

Page 12 of 28

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:28 am
by daniel_the_smith
emeraldemon wrote:I got B+1.5:

...

Black has to spend two moves to capture, but white has to spend a move to protect on the bottom.



I think this takes more than two moves to capture. In fact black might lose the race, I didn't read it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . X O X O X X . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O O X O O O O . O O X . . . |
$$ | O . . O O . O X O O X O O O . X O . . |
$$ | X O O X O O X X O X X O X O X X X . . |
$$ | X X X X X O X X X X X X X X . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X O O O O X X . . . . X |
$$ | . X . X O . O O X X . O X X X . X . X |
$$ | . . X O O X . X O . X O O X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X O O X . . O O . O X X , . . . |
$$ | . 1 X O O . O X X . . . O X . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . O X O O . O X X X . X X X |
$$ | . O . X X X O O . O . X O X X . . . X |
$$ | . O X X X . . O . O . O O O X X . X X |
$$ | . X O O . X . O . . O O X X X X X X . |
$$ | . X X O . . X O . , . O O O . X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O X X O O . O X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O . O X O X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . O X X X X X O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:15 am
by quantumf
daniel_the_smith wrote:
I think this takes more than two moves to capture. In fact black might lose the race, I didn't read it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . X O X O X X . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O O X O O O O . O O X . . . |
$$ | O . . O O . O X O O X O O O . X O . . |
$$ | X O O X O O X X O X X O X O X X X . . |
$$ | X X X X X O X X X X X X X X . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X O O O O X X . . . . X |
$$ | . X . X O . O O X X . O X X X . X . X |
$$ | . . X O O X . X O . X O O X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X O O X . . O O . O X X , . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X X . . . O X . . . . X |
$$ | . 1 O X O 5 O X O O . O X X X . X X X |
$$ | . O . X X X O O . O . X O X X . . . X |
$$ | . O X X X . . O . O . O O O X X . X X |
$$ | . X O O . X . O . . O O X X X X X X . |
$$ | . X X O . . X O . , . O O O . X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O X X O O . O X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O . O X O X O O O . |
$$ | . . 3 2 4 . . . . . . O X X X X X O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Even if black defends against the capturing race, he will either get E1 or F8. This still seems to be a 1.5 point win (unless SmartGo is counting incorrectly, which is possible).

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:31 am
by emeraldemon
I get W+0.5 if black has to block:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Moves 274 to 283
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X 4 X 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O 3 X O X O X X . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O O X O O O O 5 O O X . . . |
$$ | O . . O O . O X O O X O O O . X O . . |
$$ | X O O X O O X X O X X O X O X X X . . |
$$ | X X X X X O X X X X X X X X . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X O O O O X X . . . . X |
$$ | . X . X O . O O X X . O X X X . X . X |
$$ | . . X O O X . X O . X O O X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X O O X . . O O . O X X , . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X X . . . O X . . . . X |
$$ | . X O X O X O X O O . O X X X . X X X |
$$ | . O 0 X X X O O . O . X O X X . . . X |
$$ | . O X X X 8 . O . O . O O O X X . X X |
$$ | . X O O 7 X 1 O . . O O X X X X X X . |
$$ | . X X O 9 2 X O . , . O O O . X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O X X O O . O X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O . O X O X O O O . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . O X X X X X O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Moves 284 to 292
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O X O X O X X . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O O X O O O O O O O X . . . |
$$ | O . . O O . O X O O X O O O 7 X O . . |
$$ | X O O X O O X X O X X O X O X X X . . |
$$ | X X X X X O X X X X X X X X . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X O O O O X X . . . . X |
$$ | . X . X O . O O X X . O X X X . X . X |
$$ | . . X O O X . X O . X O O X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X O O X . . O O . O X X , . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 O X X . . . O X . . . . X |
$$ | . X 2 X O X O X O O . O X X X . X X X |
$$ | . O X X X X O O . O . X O X X . . . X |
$$ | . O X X X X 1 O . O . O O O X X . X X |
$$ | . X O O O X O O . . O O X X X X X X 6 |
$$ | . X X O O X X O . , . O O O 4 X O O 5 |
$$ | . . X O O X X O O . O X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O . O X O X O O O . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . O X X X X X O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I missed Daniel's move, it seems like the final score is in fact W+0.5

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:32 am
by daniel_the_smith
9 isn't necessary, black still eventually has to capture one of the stones, which will take two moves.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 4 X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . X O X O X 2 . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O O X O O O O . O 1 X . . . |
$$ | O . . O O . O X O O X O O O . X O . . |
$$ | X O O X O O X X O X X O X O X X X . . |
$$ | X X X X X O X X X X X X X X . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X O O O O X X . . . . X |
$$ | . X . X O . O O X X . O X X X . X . X |
$$ | . . X O O X . X O . X O O X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X O O X . . O O . O X X , . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X X . . . O X . . . . X |
$$ | . . 5 X O b O X O O . O X X X . X X X |
$$ | . . . 6 X X O O . O . X O X X . . . X |
$$ | . 7 X X X . . O . O . O O O X X . X X |
$$ | . X O O . X . O . . O O X X X X X X . |
$$ | . 8 X O . . X O . , . O O O . X O O c |
$$ | . . X O O X X O O . O X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O . O X O X O O O . |
$$ | . . 0 9 a . . . . . . O X X X X X O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White wins by .5

EDIT: added move c, above-- if white doesn't take this first, black will throw in and make a ko for the game.

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:50 am
by Hushfield
This is going to be very interesting. I have no idea what all of you are talking about. And seeing how there's many of you and only one of me, I assume I'm missing something very big, indeed. I counted the score manually. Twice. And I looked at the CGoban score estimate. Black is leading by 25+ points? Why does everybody count this as a very close game? Actually, before white's invasion I counted the game as very close, but at the end position it's not close anymore though, right?

I'm sure I'm making some horrible mistake, but I can only learn. What am I overlooking?

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:03 pm
by Li Kao
Scoring in KGS shows that the game is very close in the end. You can't use SE since it's totally broken when using Area Scoring.

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:10 pm
by Hushfield
Li Kao wrote:[...] Area Scoring.
I'll get me coat...

Thank you for clearing that up.

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:14 pm
by Li Kao
Area scoring does give a result very close to territory scoring. So your manual score still seems to be wrong.

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:26 pm
by Hushfield
That's what I thought, hence my confusion. I said at the end of that game that I was pretty bad at counting, and I have proven that to be more than true ^^ Something to work on.

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:26 pm
by ez4u
daniel_the_smith wrote:9 isn't necessary, black still eventually has to capture one of the stones, which will take two moves.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 4 X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . X O X O X 2 . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O O X O O O O . O 1 X . . . |
$$ | O . . O O . O X O O X O O O . X O . . |
$$ | X O O X O O X X O X X O X O X X X . . |
$$ | X X X X X O X X X X X X X X . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X O O O O X X . . . . X |
$$ | . X . X O . O O X X . O X X X . X . X |
$$ | . . X O O X . X O . X O O X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X O O X . . O O . O X X , . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X X . . . O X . . . . X |
$$ | . . 5 X O b O X O O . O X X X . X X X |
$$ | . . . 6 X X O O . O . X O X X . . . X |
$$ | . 7 X X X . . O . O . O O O X X . X X |
$$ | . X O O . X . O . . O O X X X X X X . |
$$ | . 8 X O . . X O . , . O O O . X O O c |
$$ | . . X O O X X O O . O X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O . O X O X O O O . |
$$ | . . 0 9 a . . . . . . O X X X X X O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White wins by .5

EDIT: added move c, above-- if white doesn't take this first, black will throw in and make a ko for the game.

After :b10: it seems that White can play :w11: below in sente. Black can not capture at :b12:. So Black plays 12 at "a" and White connects at 12.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . X O X O X X . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O O X O O O O . O O X . . . |
$$ | O . . O O . O X O O X O O O . X O . . |
$$ | X O O X O O X X O X X O X O X X X . . |
$$ | X X X X X O X X X X X X X X . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X O O O O X X . . . . X |
$$ | . X . X O . O O X X . O X X X . X . X |
$$ | . . X O O X . X O . X O O X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X O O X . . O O . O X X , . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X X . . . O X . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X O 1 O X O O . O X X X . X X X |
$$ | . a 7 X X X O O . O . X O X X . . . X |
$$ | . O X X X 6 . O . O . O O O X X . X X |
$$ | . X O O 5 X 4 O . . O O X X X X X X . |
$$ | . X X O . 3 X O . , . O O O . X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O X X O O . O X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O . O X O X O O O . |
$$ | . . X O 2 . . . . . . O X X X X X O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:24 am
by daniel_the_smith
ez4u wrote:After :b10: it seems that White can play :w11: below in sente. Black can not capture at :b12:. So Black plays 12 at "a" and White connects at 12.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . X O X O X X . . . |
$$ | . O . O X O O X O O O O . O O X . . . |
$$ | O . . O O . O X O O X O O O . X O . . |
$$ | X O O X O O X X O X X O X O X X X . . |
$$ | X X X X X O X X X X X X X X . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O X X O O O O X X . . . . X |
$$ | . X . X O . O O X X . O X X X . X . X |
$$ | . . X O O X . X O . X O O X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X O O X . . O O . O X X , . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X X . . . O X . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X O 1 O X O O . O X X X . X X X |
$$ | . 2 . X X X O O . O . X O X X . . . X |
$$ | . O X X X . . O . O . O O O X X . X X |
$$ | . X O O . X . O . . O O X X X X X X . |
$$ | . X X O . . X O . , . O O O . X O O 4 |
$$ | . . X O O X X O O . O X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O . O X O X O O O . |
$$ | . . X O 3 . . . . . . O X X X X X O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


That means:

If black doesn't start the ko (playing 14 one space above), white will win by 2.5. If black wins the ko, white will win by 0.5; if black loses the ko, white wins by 4.5.

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:30 am
by danielm
Wow... That's crazy. As usual I was in byo-youmi at this time, so I did not do a complete count, but black just looked so obviously ahead to me. I do not know what it is that sometimes screws so much with my vision. I guess I underestimated the big center.

Still, I quickly checked SE after the game and didn't question it when it confirmed my judgement, but how come that it is so dramatically off (by about 30 points)? It seems to get the groups more or less right, and I do not see why area counting should matter that much, considering that territory scoring should essentially have the same result.

In related news, this weekend I lost a tournament game by 0.5 points, only to find out later that I forgot to put in the one (!) captured stone I had in my lid. Life does write strange stories sometimes.

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:44 am
by Magicwand
danielm wrote:In related news, this weekend I lost a tournament game by 0.5 points, only to find out later that I forgot to put in the one (!) captured stone I had in my lid. Life does write strange stories sometimes.

when komi is 6.5 and it is .5 point game, one who fills final dame will be a loser

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:49 am
by Laman
danielm wrote:Still, I quickly checked SE after the game and didn't question it when it confirmed my judgement, but how come that it is so dramatically off (by about 30 points)? It seems to get the groups more or less right, and I do not see why area counting should matter that much, considering that territory scoring should essentially have the same result.

SE mishandles dead stones and/or prisoners with area scoring. i don't remember the exact way, but one can correct it rather easy in his head, if he knows how. it seems as a bug pretty easy to repair: only changing some +- in the code or just plainly forcing the territory SE always, but, as i heard, SE wasn't written by wms and it is a more or less working bunch of spaghetti code, so he has not much will to do any changes in it.

PS: i am not sure about this, but after a quickcheck i think it is like this: SE gets the +- correct score, then increases each player's score by number of the stones he captured and number of his stones laying dead on the board. reword it as you like

Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:13 pm
by jts
So Joaz... they've all played, right? Who's up next in the losers' bracket?

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