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#185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=7220

Page 12 of 16

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:43 pm
by drmwc
I took the photo.
The guy immediately in front of me is the dive master.

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:03 am
by The Intrepid
drmwc wrote:Sounds like a great holiday!Were you scuba diving?
My avatar is a whale shark I was lucky enough to see on a dive last year. Apparently it was a juvenile and so it was "small". A truly amazing fish.
Nah, just snorkeling ... scuba diving is for next time :).
My intuition says to play as below. I briefly played around with the position, and I cannot see anything better than :b1:, so far. I'm curious if EdLee will respond at "a," if I play :b1:.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . a 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O X . O .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X
$$ | . . . O O . . . . ,
$$ | . . X X . . . . X .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:40 am
by The Intrepid
My time to be slow. I've been playing lots of chess recently in preparation for the summer tournament cycle, so I blame chess. Anyway, I'll make my move over the weekend.
When I looked at the position a few weeks ago, I thought White solves his problems after the following variation, but now I am no longer sure.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . 2 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 3 O X . O .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X
$$ | . . . O O . . . . ,
$$ | . . X X . . . . X .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]

An alternative is to play as below in hopes that White responds with :w2:. Having made this exchange, :b3: would yield better results than in the diagram above.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O 2 . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . 3 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O X . O .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X
$$ | . . . O O . . . . ,
$$ | . . X X . . . . X .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:12 am
by The Intrepid
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm59
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . 1 . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
I played around with the position some more, and I came to the conclusion that I simply have to play :b59:, come what may. I think that I might actually be okay in the complications to follow, but we'll see. It's easy to miss some move in such a position.

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:52 am
by EdLee
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm60
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X 1 . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:49 am
by The Intrepid
I'm not unhappy to see this move. It seems to me that I will now have no problem building a wall on the left side to attack the lone White stone there. I wonder if EdLee realizes the full extent of my plan--that my aim is to attack the lone stone as much as the group at 4-4 ... or perhaps he does not think the attack against the lone stone will amount to much. I'll need to think here a bit (and refresh my memory, honestly speaking, because it's been awhile since I looked at this position), but the plan (broadly speaking) is this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X O . . . .
$$ | . . X O . O . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . O
$$ | . . X O . . . . .
$$ | . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . W , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . B B . .
$$ | . . X . B X O . .
$$ | . . . . . O X . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O O . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . . . X
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:32 am
by Aphelion
Intrepid:
Why is that one white stone on the side important?

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:40 am
by The Intrepid
Aphelion wrote:Intrepid:
Why is that one white stone on the side important?
Well, if I kill it, it's points. :D Essentially, I don't think EdLee is so far ahead that I need to be desperate, yet. To the contrary, I think that if I trade area "a" for area "b," then I'll have a very good position. Basically, if White loses that stone without compensation, then it's as if he did not play that stone at all--in other words, it's as if I took an extra move in the game. That should be enough to reverse the game in my favor ... at least, such is my current evaluation of the situation.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X O . . . .
$$ | . . X O . O . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . O
$$ | . . X O . . . . .
$$ | . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . b b b . . . .
$$ | . . b b b . . . .
$$ | . . W , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . X O . .
$$ | . . . . . O X . O
$$ | . . a a a . . . .
$$ | . . a a a . . . .
$$ | . . . O O . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . . . X
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:11 am
by The Intrepid
Maybe something like this?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O 5 . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X 3 O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 2 4 . 6 O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 C X X O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . O O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . 2 . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
This result looks terrible for White, so this is probably not what EdLee has in mind. I got to think some more.

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:04 pm
by The Intrepid
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm61
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
I was very close to making a move numerous times. However, I kept finding previously overlooked resources, thus delaying my response. There were several issues I tried to fathom. Firstly, I attempted to decide between the game continuation and this alternative:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . B . 1 B O . .
$$ | . . . . . O X . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O O . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . . . X
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]
This move links up the marked stones better than the move in the game. Yet, these stones seem to be at risk of getting separated from other Black stones in many of the variations I looked at. As such, the move in the game--which offers better access to the center--is preferable.

The question is, however, whether White can take advantage of the gap between Black stones. To this effect, White can try the following moves, for example:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . . .
$$ | . . X a b X O . .
$$ | . . . c . O X . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O O . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . . . X
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]
I think I can get a reasonable result in all these cases.

Secondly, I tried to understand what happens if I try to run the G7 stone if it gets ataried. The consequences of the following variation seem disadvantageous--very risky, in the very least:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O 4 . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X 2 O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 3 . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

However, Black can play the following move, so Black should be fine in case of the immediate atari by White:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . . .
$$ | . . X . . X O . .
$$ | . . . . . O X . O
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . .
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . .
$$ | . . . W W . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . . . X
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

Finally, I tried to understand whether I should or should not respond to :w1: (which threatens the corner) in the next diagram.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . . .
$$ | . . X . . X O . .
$$ | . . . . . O X . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . .
$$ | 7 4 1 O O . . . .
$$ | 8 . X X 3 . . . X
$$ | . 6 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]
As the variation shows, if Black ignores the threat of :w1:, Black has a ko for life. This ko is risky, but maybe tenuki could prove more valuable. Currently, I'm undecided on the subject. I'll think more about it should the possibility materialize on the board.

Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 10:44 pm
by EdLee
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm62
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 11:10 pm
by The Intrepid
Now I need to make sure I did not miscalculate earlier in thinking that I can play the following move (or that I am not missing an even stronger reply):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Edit:
Maybe I can play this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . O . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . O . X O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . O . . . O X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:10 am
by EdLee
The Intrepid, just checking: you know it's your turn, right? :)

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:27 am
by The Intrepid
Yeah, I know, sorry! :oops: I was preparing for a major chess tournament, then played in it for a week (doing reasonably well), and now I'm recovering from it ... still not quite in the mood for hard-core Go reading ... but I'm getting there ;).

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:59 pm
by EdLee
Wow, chess tourney! Exciting. How did you do? Too bad you cannot post your chess games here... or, can you?
Can this forum support chess SGF files??? :)
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