Kirby's Study Journal

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:57 pm

vst wrote:...
Connect.

Thanks, vst. I'm leaning toward the same opinion Position 1. Regarding connecting, are you OK with this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X O O B . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . X O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I felt that black has miai now between this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X . X . B . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . X O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

and this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , B . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . X O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It could be OK, and maybe better than game, but I just feel a bit heavy with the three stones, because of the marked black stone:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . B O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . X O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Any thoughts?

vst · Post by **vst** » Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:39 am

By connecting, you hurt black's lone stone. It will be hard for black to launch a successful attack. Black taking the corner doesn't seem much of a problem, because white's stone on the right still has plenty of space. Besides that, there isn't any other move I can think of, you can't afford to let black cut you.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:46 pm

In line with what I did a couple of days ago, I reviewed another pro game. This time between Lee Sedol and Choi Cheolhan.

Again, I did the exercise I mentioned above of trying to guess the move before it was played. But I have to say, given the amount of "misses" I had in my guesses vs. the real game moves, I did not understand this game very well. For a large portion of the moves, the game move was different than what I guessed.

Still, it was a fun exercise.

Here's the game:

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:58 pm

Differences in Kirby Thought vs. Pro Move

Position 1

I have inconsistency between playing to conservatively and stretching myself. Here's an example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . , . . . O X , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . X . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . B C . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O X X X X , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Above, the marked move was good for pressuring white. I had wanted to play the marked intersection.

In contrast, just a couple of moves later, I played a less solid move, which had bad aji:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . , . . . O X , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . X . . . . . . O X . B . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . C . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O X X X X , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The proper move is as marked, whereas I wanted to play the marked intersection.

Fundamentally, this difference must come down to reading. I must be solid when the position requires it, and not solid when it does not.

Position 2

This is somewhat related to Position 1, but I think it deserves its own highlight. After the cutting scenario described above, white moved back to the group above:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O X X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . , . . . O X , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . X . . . . . . O X . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . C X W . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O X X X X , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So one might wonder why white cut to begin with, if he was going to come back and help this group anyway. I can think of two reasons:

1.) The cut forces black to decide how to respond. After getting the response, white can adjust his plan (i.e. a probe).
2.) The cut serves benefit in strengthening the side white group. Because of the cut, white has the atari at the marked intersection, so indirectly, the entire group is stronger.

I had no idea of this kind of idea. When I cut, typically, I assume I must immediately live with the cutting stones. In this case, the cutting stone was a tool - it did not need to necessarily survive - it served other purposes as well.

Neat!

Position 3
After the marked white play:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . O X X O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . X X O X X . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . , . . . O X , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . X . . . . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O X X X X O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . O O O . O . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I was totally blind to the idea that the black stones could be attacked. Black immediately strengthened the group, but this wasn't even in my line of thought.

Perhaps it's something basic, but I should remember that, after every move, I need to consider the implications of any attack on my groups.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:53 am

Kirby wrote:When I cut, typically, I assume I must immediately live with the cutting stones.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:11 pm

vst wrote:By connecting, you hurt black's lone stone. It will be hard for black to launch a successful attack. Black taking the corner doesn't seem much of a problem, because white's stone on the right still has plenty of space. Besides that, there isn't any other move I can think of, you can't afford to let black cut you.

I looked into this a little further, and there are a few examples I found in my database of pro play in the local position in the top right corner, however the situation is very rare.

Looking at only the top right corner, 98% of the time in my database search, black cuts here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X B O . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . X O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Of the other two percent, there were four games where black extended like he did in this game, and in one game, white connected as you suggest. However, in the other three games, white played the 3-3:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . . W . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . X O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Subsequently, black blocked in all of the games:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . X O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Then after this, there were two responses among the games that had this variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X W O . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . X O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

and

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . W O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . X O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So based on the small set of data that I have for this position, the most popular choice was top jump into 3-3, leaving the option to connect the stones later. The second most popular, which happened in one game, was to connect the stones.

That being said, what kind of analysis can you really do with 4 games? I feel that connecting and the 3-3 are certainly options, since we have some pros that played these moves, but it's hard to tell from this data alone whether connecting is best, 3-3 is best, or if there are other alternatives.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:49 pm

When I play go, I sometimes think about territory, but usually I am thinking more abstractly (eg. let's see if I can pressure this group, I'll have to play lightly here, he has a lot of influence, etc.). This might be a good thing, since go theory has developed a lot in recent years, but it made me wonder about making a connection to the result of a game and what happens earlier.

As an exercise, I took a handful of the last few games I've played, and went straight to the end position. From the end position, I tried to consider the area on the board where I got the most territory, and then I asked myself, "Why did I get a lot of territory in this area?" Playing back through the games, I can consider a few key moves that led to the big chunk of territory there.

Here are a few examples:

Game 1

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . X O O X O O O O . X X . X O X O . | $$ | . . X , . X X X O X . . O X X X O . . | $$ | . . X O O . . O X X . . X X X O . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X X . X . . X O X O O . . | $$ | . X . X O O X . X O O X X O O X . . . | $$ | . . X O X X O O O X X O X . O . X . . | $$ | . X O O X . . . . X O O . X O O X . . | $$ | . . O X X O O O X X . . O . O X X . . | $$ | . O . O X X X X O X O . O . O O X O . | $$ | C C C O X . . . O O O X X . X . X O . | $$ | C C C O X O X X O . O O X . X . X O . | $$ | C C C C O X X O . . O X . X O . . . . | $$ | C C C C C O O . . O . X . O . . O . . | $$ | C C C O C C C O O X X . X X O O X . . | $$ | C C C O C O O X X O . . X O X X O O . | $$ | C C C C O X X X . X . . X O X . X . . | $$ | C C C C . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Listed above is the position near the end of the game (before a blunder by the opponent). Looking at this board, notably, I can see that I have a lot of likely territory in the bottom left. How did this occur?

Backing up a few moves, we have this position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . X O O X O O O O . X X . X O X O . | $$ | . . X , . X X X O X . . O X X X O . . | $$ | . . X O O . . O X X . . X X . O . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X X O . . . X O X O O . . | $$ | . X . X O O X . X O O X X O O X . . . | $$ | . . X O X X O O O X X O X . O . X . . | $$ | . X O O X . . . . X O O . X O O X . . | $$ | . . . , X O . . X , . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . O . O X . X . . X O . O . O O X O . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . X . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X O O X . . | $$ | . . . W . . O . . . . . X O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not sure if this was a slow move, but playing the marked point allowed for me to secure my claim to territory in this area. But this is not to say that the corner didn't have value before I played this move. I had stones outlining a framework before this. How did this occur?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . X O O X O O . . . X X . X O X O . | $$ | . . X , . X X . . , . . O X X X O . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 1 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . X O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . X O O X O O . . . X X . X O X O . | $$ | . . X , . X X . . , . . O X X X O . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . 1 . X O 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 5 6 . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . X O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In the fight in the upper left, I was able to cut and start to make territory on the side. To be honest, I feel that this part of the game is one in which I played poorly. But in any case, as a result, white was able to gain potential for points on the left, while black's group still needed a couple of moves to get settled. Because my cut at :b4:

, above, is probably not good, black could get benefit in the center.

Still, the movement of my stones on the left allowed for potential territory on the left at the end of the game.

Game 2

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | C C C C C C C O O O O X . . X X O . . | $$ | C C C C C C O C C C O X . . X O O . O | $$ | C C C C O C O C O O O X . O X X O . . | $$ | C O O O X O O O X O X . X X . X O . O | $$ | O O X X X . . X X X . X X O X X O O X | $$ | X O O . X O O X . X X X O O O X X X X | $$ | X X O . X X X . X . O X X O X X O . . | $$ | . X O O X . X X X X O . O O O O X . . | $$ | . X O X X O O O X O O O O O O X X . . | $$ | . . X X O O O . O O O X X O O X . . . | $$ | X X X X X O . O O X O X . O O X . . . | $$ | . X O O X X O . O X O X X X X O O X . | $$ | X X O . O X O . O X X O O O X X . . . | $$ | X O O O O O O O X X O . . O O X X . X | $$ | X X O X X X O X X O . O . O X . . X O | $$ | X O O O O X X X O O O O O X X X X O O | $$ | . . O X O X . X X O . O X X X O O O . | $$ | O O X X X . X X O . O O X O O O . . . | $$ | . X X . . . X O O . O . X X X O . O . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Listed above is another endgame position, where I played white. It's easy to see that I have a lot of points in the top left. How did this happen?

One important moment was probably around this move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 B O . . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O X O . O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . X O X X O O . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . X X X O O O X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . X . X . . X X O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . X X . X . . O . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . X . O O X O O O O O . X X . . | $$ | . . . , . . O . O , O X X O O X . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . O O X O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . O X O X O X X X X . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . X O X X O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O O X X . X X O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . X . . X X O . O X . . . . X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O , O . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . O . . X . X X O . O X X X O O O . | $$ | . . . X . . X X O . O . X O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . O . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I ended up capturing the cutting stone, so it turned into a lot of territory for white. Black may have been able to counter this, but in any case, this is how things happened in the game.

But even before this cut, white still had some stones along the top (which are now somewhat damaged). When did this happen?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . 1 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X . . . X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . O . O . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O , O . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . O . . X . X X O . O X X X O O O . | $$ | . . . X . . . X O . O . X O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White secured some territory here. In the actual game, white has a fiasco in the center, and these stones are hurt. Perhaps this is something to learn from.

Game 3

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X O . O . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X X O O O . O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O O X O O X O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X X O O X O X O X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . O O X . O X O X O O O X . | $$ | . . X . . O . O X O O X O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O X O O X X X X . . . X . | $$ | . . X , X O . X O X X . O O O O . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X X O X X X O . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X O O O O O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I was white in this game, and by capturing stones, I gained a lot of territory. How did it come about that I could capture these stones?

Well, it was helpful in one sense that I was able to get out with the white group here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . X O C O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X O O X O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O X O X O X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . O O X . O X . X O O O . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O X O O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O X O O X X . X . . . X . | $$ | . . X , X O . X O X X . O O O O . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X X O X X X O . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X O O O O O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It didn't guarantee a capture, but it ensured that my stones here did not get captured themselves.

Backing up, this cut was very helpful:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . X , X O . . W X . . O . O O . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X X O X X X . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X O O O O . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This battle started with the move here, which might have been overplay by me (I thought I was behind at this point):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . O . O O . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O . X . . X . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . W . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Game 4

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X O . . . . . X . O O X O X . | $$ | O X X O X O . . O . X O X X O . X . . | $$ | . X . X X X . . . O O O X X X X . O . | $$ | . X . X . O X . X . X O X O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . X . X . X . X O O . O O . . | $$ | . O X . . O X O X O . X X O . X O O . | $$ | . X O X . O O O X X X . O X X . X X X | $$ | . X O O . X X O X O O O O O O X X . X | $$ | . . X , O . . O O O O X O X O X . . X | $$ | . . . X X X X O X O X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . O . X O O X X X X X O X . . . . X | $$ | . . O O X X O O . O O X O O X . X . . | $$ | . O . O X O O O O O X X O . X X . X X | $$ | O O O X X . O X X X O X O O . . X X . | $$ | . . . O X O . O . X O O X O X X O . . | $$ | O . O O X . . O . X . O X O O X O . . | $$ | . O O X . X . O X . O . . O X X X . . | $$ | O . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I lost the game above - I lost a large group. Why did this happen?

Well, one problem comes back to the fact that black was able to cut me here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X O . . . . . . . O O X O X . | $$ | O X X O X O . . O . X . X X O . X . . | $$ | . X . X X . . . . , . . . . X X . O . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X | $$ | . . . . . . X . . O O O O O O X X . X | $$ | . . X , O . . O O X O X O X O X . . X | $$ | . . . X X X X O X . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . O . X O O X X X X X O X . . . . X | $$ | . . O O X X O O . O O X O O X . X . . | $$ | . O . O X O O O O O X X O . X X . X X | $$ | O O O X X . O X X X O X O O . . X X . | $$ | . . . O X O . O . X O O X O X X O . . | $$ | O . O O X . . O . X . O X O O X O . . | $$ | . O O X . X . O X . O . . O X X X . . | $$ | O . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This gave me several weak groups, which led to a big disaster, but the game is already a problem at this point. How did I get to this stage?

Fundamentally, a lot of action started after I attacked this group here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O X O . . O . X . . X . . X . . | $$ | . X . X X . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , O . . O . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X X X X O . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X O O X X X X . W . . . O . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . O . O X O O . O . . . . . X X O . . | $$ | O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . , O . . . X X O . . | $$ | O . O O X . . . . . . . . O O X O . . | $$ | . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X X X . . | $$ | O . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But I can't say that I disagree with this move in itself - I kind of like it. So I don't think that the problem is here.

Later in the game...

I was so intent on killing him, that I even played here to separate black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O X O . . O . X . . X . . X . . | $$ | . X . X X . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . O O O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , O . . O O X O X O X . , . . . | $$ | . . . X X X X O X . X X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X O O X X X X . O X . . O . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . W . O . O . | $$ | . O . O X O O O O O X X O . X X O . . | $$ | O O O X X . . X . X O . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . , O . . . X X O . . | $$ | O . O O X . . . . . . . . O O X O . . | $$ | . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X X X . . | $$ | O . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The problem is, after doing so, the marked white stones are also split, and are both weak:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O X O . . O . X . . X . . X . . | $$ | . X . X X . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . O O O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , O . . O O X O X O X . , . . . | $$ | . . . X X X X O X . X X X X . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X O O X X X X . W X W . W . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . W X W . W . | $$ | . O . O X O O O O O X X W . X X W . . | $$ | O O O X X . . X . X O . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . , O . . . X X O . . | $$ | O . O O X . . . . . . . . O O X O . . | $$ | . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X X X . . | $$ | O . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I only have one move, so I can only save one group.

And I didn't let up. Further in the game, I persisted in keeping him sealed in:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O X O . . O . X . . X . . X . . | $$ | . X . X X . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . O O O O O . . X W . | $$ | . . X , O . . O O X O X O X . X . O . | $$ | . . . X X X X O X . X X X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O . X O O X X X X . O X O O O . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . O X O . O . | $$ | . O . O X O O O O O X X O . X X O . . | $$ | O O O X X . . X . X O X O . . . X X . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . , O O . . X X O . . | $$ | O . O O X . . . . . . . . O O X O . . | $$ | . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X X X . . | $$ | O . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In the end, it was him who captured me, and in trying to come back, I crashed and lost the game.

There's something to be said about going from an attack like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O X O . . O . X . . X . . X . . | $$ | . X . X X . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , O . . O . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X X X X O . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X O O X X X X . W . . . O . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . O . O X O O . O . . . . . X X O . . | $$ | O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . , O . . . X X O . . | $$ | O . O O X . . . . . . . . O O X O . . | $$ | . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X X X . . | $$ | O . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

to a potentially risky situation like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O X O . . O . X . . X . . X . . | $$ | . X . X X . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . O O O O O O X X O X | $$ | . . X , O . . O O X O X O X . X O O . | $$ | . . . X X X X O X . X X X X . X . O . | $$ | . . O . X O O X X X X . O X O O O . X | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . O X O . O . | $$ | . O . O X O O O O O X X O . X X O X . | $$ | O O O X X . . X . X O X O . . . X X . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . , O O . . X X O . . | $$ | O . O O X . . . . . . . . O O X O . . | $$ | . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X X X . . | $$ | O . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now it may be the case that I could have killed him somewhere along the way in this attack. But clearly, the sequence got to a point where I could not read out a clean kill, and for the sake of a *possible* kill, I went all out, ignoring whatever benefit I could have gotten from the attack in a more subtle way.

General Thoughts

Games 3 and 4 are different from the others in that these were situations where the end result was clearly determined by a large kill. Clearly, getting a large kill can lead to significant territory at the end of the game. But we can see from Game 4 that I could have gotten territory in another way. For example, I don't know the best way to attack his stones, but I should at least be able to get as much territory as I could by playing simply to get points in this area:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O X O . . O . X . . X . . X . . | $$ | . X . X X . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . C C | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O C C | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C C | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O C C C | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C C C C | $$ | . . X , O . . O . , . . . . . C C C C | $$ | . . . X X X X O . O . . . C C C C C C | $$ | . . O . X O O X X X X . O C C C O C C | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . O . O X O O . O . . . . . X X O . . | $$ | O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . , O . . . X X O . . | $$ | O . O O X . . . . . . . . O O X O . . | $$ | . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X X X . . | $$ | O . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If I had gotten all of those points, that's pretty significant. I don't think it's good to passively take territory like this, but I should not be so willing to risk the result of the game, if I am not sure that I can get at least as good as benefit as I can by playing in a non-fighting way.

In Game 1, I was able to secure territory along the bottom left side both by a gote move to solidify the potential territory, and also by keeping pressure on his floating group. This gave me lots of points in the end, even though it could have potentially been exploited. Game 2 also obtained natural territory along the top by attacking his stone, but earlier stones I played were indeed damaged by a fight I was having in the center.

If I think of these points in consolidation, I feel that I see a simple, yet obvious theme: I can make these big areas of territory by pressuring or attacking the opponent. But I should not do so at the cost of ruining what I already have. Pressure can allow me to get points, but I must not give in to the temptation to give up the existing stones in order to gain more territory later. Instead, utilize each stone, and find a way to naturally make points by keeping pressure on his group. This seems to be a pattern in my ability to make points in a given area.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:57 am

I went to the local go club yesterday. I arrived a little late, but played two games. The first was against a 3k, and I gave them three stones. I am not great at handicap games, but somehow I killed a large group and won.

The second was against a 2 or 3d player, whom I will refer to as "Mr. L", so as to protect his identity. We played without handicap. By the time we started, it was getting late already, so the quality of the game could have been better. Some people were waiting for a ride from Mr. L, which made us both uncomfortable.

Still, it was an educational game with a few key learning points.

Here is the SGF:

I transcribed the game from memory after a bit of sleep, so there is a chance the ordering is off in a couple of places, but I am reasonably confident that this is the game we played.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:07 am

Key Game Positions

Position 1

How would you respond as black in the following position?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Move 10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In retrospect, I feel the following is better:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Move 10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . B . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Position 2

What do you think of white's play here?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Move 30 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . X . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . W X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . W , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . W W X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It seems OK to me, but somewhat weak, somehow. I wonder how black should best respond.

Position 3
How would you respond to white here?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Move 68 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . X . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X c . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . O . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . X . . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . X . . X . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . X . . O O X X . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X X O X , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . X . . X O O O O X O O . . O O X . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . O . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I suspect 'a', 'b', or 'c' would be good, but it was hard for me to decide - I particularly didn't like 'b'.

---------------------------------

General Thoughts

Reflecting on the game, I think that we both felt a bit rushed, so that made us both make some pretty big mistakes. On the other hand, there were obvious misreads that I had, which shouldn't have happened, even under time pressure.

These days I have been focusing on studying things other than go problems, to try something different. But maybe I should start incorporating that kind of study again, too.

Because reading is essential, and I can see some gaps in my reading in this game:
* My ko threat
* Status of the white group on the bottom
* Status of black group on top

All of the above should have been things that I should have done better with, and reading better and recognizing patterns faster could have helped.

VincentCB · Post by **VincentCB** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:29 am

Just throwing out the first thing that comes to mind looking at the diagrams.

Position 1:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Move 10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . 4 O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Position 2: I feel white mishandled the lower right

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Move 30 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . X . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . W X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 1 , . . . . W , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . W W X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Position 3:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Move 68 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 . . | $$ | . . O X X . . X . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X c . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . O . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . X . . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . X . . X . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . X . . O O X X . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X X O X , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . X . . X O O O O X O O . . O O X . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . O . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:31 am

Thanks, VincentCB. I particularly like your idea for the first diagram. The reason I didn't play the attachment was because I have had bad luck with a white stone in the top, but it's early in the fuseki, so I can play there to see how he responds first.

Great idea.

oren · Post by **oren** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:39 am

Position 1, my gut feel was 3-3 is fine. I did a database search, and it comes up with just one game with that fuseki which surprised me. Shi Yue answered 3-3.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:48 pm

oren wrote:Position 1, my gut feel was 3-3 is fine. I did a database search, and it comes up with just one game with that fuseki which surprised me. Shi Yue answered 3-3.

I see the same sort of result in a database search, and incidentally, perhaps the same game (Shi Yue vs. Wang Lei Sr.). However, perhaps this could be because there are only 5 games where white approaches here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In contrast, there are 642 games where white plays here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Perhaps this is a more effective way to counter the mini-Chinese opening.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:20 pm

While I was looking at game database positions, I looked up more on the stones in the bottom right:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . X . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . W X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . W , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . W W X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't know if it applies in this situation, but there are several pro games with a common pattern:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . X . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 9 . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X 0 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 8 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . 3 1 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . X . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In the game, I didn't hane, but extended. In this case, pros sometimes did something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . X . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . 3 1 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

and sometimes something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . X . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . 7 . . . 5 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . 3 1 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I guess white's intention is to just get some stones in the center for a presence there, since white can't really make a base in the bottom right.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:55 pm

For kicks, I took all of the text from comments that have been posted in this study journal (not including this post), with the exception of repeated quotes and the SGF files, and I created a word graph of what people (myself included) have said during throughout the discussion on this thread:

It's not surprising to me that "play" and "game" stand out in the image, but maybe it gives an overall sense of the discussion happening in this journal. We talk a lot about games, positions, thinking, white and black, time, and stones.

Relatively infrequently, we talk about "reason" and "problem". :-)

Of course, this is just for fun, but maybe I should focus more on the reasons behind the problems I encounter in my games! ;-)

Life In 19x19

Kirby's Study Journal

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Re: Kirby's Study Journal