#231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

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drmwc
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by drmwc »

It's a difficult position. One available option to me is a huge exchange.

e.g.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , 1 . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . 6 4 3 O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X 5 . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 8 7 . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X 9 X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


This has some attraction. However,it may not work if black gets an obvious peep in first e.g.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , 1 . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . 8 6 5 O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X 7 . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 0 9 . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . 2 O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O 3 O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]




Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 cotinutaion
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , O 0 . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O X 6 8 9 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . X X O O 7 . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X O 2 . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O 4 . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X 1 X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . 3 5 O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O X O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


White is unlikely to win here.

Another line is to link through at the top, and avoid a dame connection. But then I seem a long way behind. I'll give diagrams for this later.

So I am minded to play this move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . 1 . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


It's an attempt at a multi-purpose move - help the lone stone at the top; help my moyo and give the big group sufficient resources should it get cut off; aim at attcking black in the centre.
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Bill Spight
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Bill Spight »

drmwc wrote:It's a difficult position.

{snip}

So I am minded to play this move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . 1 . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


It's an attempt at a multi-purpose move - help the lone stone at the top; help my moyo and give the big group sufficient resources should it get cut off; aim at attcking black in the centre.


Will Black's ears turn red?

:mrgreen:
The Adkins Principle:
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— Winona Adkins

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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

BUMP

@Drwmc: Hope you have recovered from the party. :blackeye:
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by drmwc »

Sorry that this move took a while - I may have overdone it a little at the party!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm69
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . X . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


It may be a trifle eccentric to post the idea of a complex move, then potter off for a month, and then play a completely normal move. But I seem to have done that.

I couldn't find a good answer if this happened if I followed my original plan:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . X . 1 . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . 3 2 8 7 . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , 0 . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X 5 . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


This seems good for black. So I've reverted to a simpler idea - loosely connecting my bits whilst disconnecting the black bits. I also have some aggresive sub-aims:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , 3 . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . 5 . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . X . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , 4 . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]

If I can get a few points attacking the huge black thing, and stay strong with my slightly thin bits, the game is becoming close.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , B . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


I'm ahead by something like 25 or 30 points, and there are really only two ways that he can hope to catch up:
1) Killing my center group, or
2) Chasing my center group and making points on the right:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . 2 . 3 . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , 1 . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


So my move needs to interfere with both plans.

I chose L10 after a lot of Monte Carlo analysis. In numerous scenarios, I always did well when I had that move.

It plunges right into the center of the area where he hopes to make territory, and it improves my chances of connecting south to L5 or north to M17/O16.

It looks like it abandons the stone up top, but it doesn't:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O 5 2 1 , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . 4 3 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 6 . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O 8 . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


There is also the possibility of connecting to the O8 stone. Any move that connects is sente, threatening the cut at P7.

He can grab some territory in gote and prevent the connection like this, but then I get a lot up top:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . 3 , 4 . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . 5 . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , 1 . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . 2 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . Z O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
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Uberdude
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Uberdude »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
I'm ahead by something like 25 or 30 points...


drmwc wrote: If I can get a few points attacking the huge black thing, and stay strong with my slightly thin bits, the game is becoming close.


They can't both be right :) (unless a few means 15 and close means within 10 points).

My quick count of territory (assuming white makes s15 r17 exchange to prevent black s12, a bit generous to white) and that h17/k17 is all dame and o12 area dame too (a bit generous to black) gets black about 20 points ahead. But white has sente and can eat h17 to get quite a few points, but has to worry about the centre if he does that. Also maybe white can find something like s7 in lower right corner.
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Bill Spight »

Uberdude wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
I'm ahead by something like 25 or 30 points...


drmwc wrote: If I can get a few points attacking the huge black thing, and stay strong with my slightly thin bits, the game is becoming close.


They can't both be right :) (unless a few means 15 and close means within 10 points).

My quick count of territory (assuming white makes s15 r17 exchange to prevent black s12, a bit generous to white) and that h17/k17 is all dame and o12 area dame too (a bit generous to black) gets black about 20 points ahead. But white has sente and can eat h17 to get quite a few points, but has to worry about the centre if he does that. Also maybe white can find something like s7 in lower right corner.


I agree with Uberdude that Black is around 20 pts. ahead. But at this stage of a 4 stone game, I also agree with drmwc that the game is becoming close. I think that drmwc is a favorite to win.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

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drmwc
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by drmwc »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm70
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 2 . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , 1 . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


Write up will follow later.
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm70
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 2 . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , 1 . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]

That was a vicious move by my opponent. It has three distinct threats. He threatens to surround me in the center, and to take much of the upper side, and also to isolate my left side group so that it might be killed.

I'm offering him one of three: I'll let him have my center group if he lets me have the uppper side while connecting leftward. ( To be exact, I'd let him have only four stones, but not L10. I would play L8 in an attempt at rescue, concede the other stones, and thereby interfere with his possibilities for territory in the right/center )
I doubt that he will accept that, for it is easier to make territory on the side. Also, such a compromise tends to resolve much of the board, and leaves me with sente going into the endgame. I think that he will want to keep the tension.

He has three groups that I can go after too. I'm hoping to take much of the upper side while swallowing K17, I still am threatening his center group ( a properly timed G13 ), and in some circumstances I can play E18.

There is going to be some bloody fighting here soon. He has to come out ahead, or he loses the game. I just have to break even.
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by ez4u »

IMHO, the last couple of Black plays clearly show that :b64: left Black thin and allowed too much counter play. Black should have played 64 at 65. Remaining strong in the center was much more valuable than a few points on the side.
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Uberdude »

ez4u wrote:IMHO, the last couple of Black plays clearly show that :b64: left Black thin and allowed too much counter play. Black should have played 64 at 65. Remaining strong in the center was much more valuable than a few points on the side.


Agree, it was such a basic instinct for connectedness to block that push, and now I expect white to simply block this at g15 and that doesn't look like a good exchange for black.

Having said that, I have seen a small number of pro games where that sort of push into a keima wasn't blocked so it is worth not automatically blocking, but it's very rare and usually because everything is alive so only territory considerations are relevant, but here connection and life of groups was still at stake.
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Bill Spight »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:There is going to be some bloody fighting here soon. He has to come out ahead, or he loses the game. I just have to break even.


The battle cry of Black in a handicap game! ;)
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by drmwc »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm70
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 2 . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , 1 . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


I've said it before, and I'm apt to say it again: Go is a topological game. I can't see any alternative for my move, which connects white bits whilst disconnecting black bits. In fact, my move is so natural that I think Joaz's previous move was a mistake. It feels like aji keshi, and weakens his lone stone at the top.

For my previous move, it's tempting to try to swallow the black stone at the top e.g.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . 4 1 , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X 3 . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


Black 2 roughly connects some black bits, and forces white to connect on dame. IT seems to more or less activate the stone at the top. I seem to not make much progress here.

Black 2 is such a nice move that I felt like I ought to prevent it. I was lucky - the move played not only prevents it but has a few aims itself. (It took me a while to find the move, and I stumbled upon it more by luck than design.)

Black could contemplate saving the single stone after the move played:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . 2 3 . 7 8 X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 . 4 . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . 9 . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


If he does that, I get an attack against the entire centre thing. It's unlikely to die, but I will have fun harassing it.

Alternatively, black could try this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X 7 O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . 5 6 , 8 . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


This may be playable for black. I swallow the top side on a reasonable scale, and my centre group is now reasonably thick. I definitely have chances to win if I get a lot of the big endgame points.

With the move 72 as in the game, I have no idea what a reasonable follow up is for black.

I have some further thoughts on the topological benefits of my move: I gain in the endgame due to keeping black separate

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 2 tenukis
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . 3 . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . 7 X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


The move at 3 becomes nearly sente - black may survive without 4 as above, but it will be a small life. I then pick up some sent moves against the other big black group. The net result is that black ends up without much territory around here.

Finally, I may emerge with sente from whatever fighting happens. For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . W W B . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X 7 O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . 5 6 , 8 . B X . X 0 X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . B W . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X B X . . . . . . B W . . . O X . . |
$$ | . W . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . W X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . W W |
$$ | . B X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X B W |
$$ | . . . . W O X . . . . . O O . . . B B |
$$ | . . . B . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . B X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . W O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . W B . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W W B . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


White 9 above is very big. It's almost double sente.I have also added some hypothetical endgame moves which may happen if Black is passive.

I think I'm around 5 points behind here. I also potentially have more entertaining moves to try against the lower right corner. So (if black is passive or makes further mistakes) I am well in the game.

Also, this diagram doesn't take into account 72 as played. This seems to be a slight mistake, so I've caught up more.

Go is a topological game - particularly in the relatively early stages.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm70
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . 5 , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 2 . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , 1 . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


He declines the offer of the stones?? :scratch:
I must offer them again.

If he lets me connect H17 to my center group, I'll have enough liberties to go hunting his center group again, and G13 uses :w73: to cut.
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Uberdude
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Uberdude »

Joaz:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:He declines the offer of the stones??
I must offer them again.

What would accepting the offer look like? White's move looks very normal to me.
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