Page 13 of 21

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:50 pm
by Magicwand
obs:
i was looking at the board and realized that the most important point of the board is "a"
if black plays it then my white groups looks weak and thin.
i think it worth more than gote life at upper right corner.

kirby: this is what i mean by influence will grow exponentally.
if black plays there it will erase all my partal influence and expose my weakness.
very good example of what i talked about on other thread.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


what i felt about my opponent's move sofar
his life on upper left corner was wrong timing.
he should have waited little more but he could not resist.
but i am resisting my urge of invasion for more urgent points on the board.

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:26 pm
by cdybeijing
To Magicwand:

You said "influence will grow exponentially." I really want to understand this point and I was wondering if you could elaborate a bit more? It's not clear to me from your last comment.

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:59 am
by Solomon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't really understand his last move; if he wants to play P1 is sente...why not just play P1? Oh well; anyways, I edited my post prior to this one so you understand why I played B19. If you're too lazy to go back a page and read it, I'll just copypasta it here for you:
----
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Originally I had thought that with the last move W played, I could play elsewhere (or if he had played at 'a', I could then play :bc: and would feel good about leaving the aji before living (see my explanation in my previous post).

However, I didn't want to be careless and verify that if W does play :wc: , then I would live. So naturally I had to consider this possibility:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . c X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And the question becomes whether the :w5: group is dead. After some reading, it's pretty clear that if W tries to live with 'b', then W will lose the liberty race and I'll be fine. The problem is when W plays at 'c':

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 1 X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There are two moves for me to consider: 'a' and 'b'. I think the first move that has to come in everyone's mind is 'a', so I'll go over that move first.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 2 8 b . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | 5 O X 6 X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 a 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Clearly this is problematic. I can't protect both 'a' and 'b' (note the problem 'c' causes) and won't be able to save my corner this way. I don't think I need to explain why :b7: at :w8: doesn't work either. But don't take my word for it. Let's say I protect at 'b':

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O 1 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | X 3 X O X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 2 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 8 7 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The ko variation is no good either. If I try to protect at 'a':

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O 3 X 5 . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O 4 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | X . X O X 6 X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And W's group escapes.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If I hane the other way, one may already get bad feelings up to :w4: . While W is shut off from the outside world (Image) and not alive, neither is B.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O 4 X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | 2 O X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The :w4: -> :b5: exchange is needed for W to make it a snapback and ensure it's not ko. After reading this through, I found B to lose the liberty race. I also considered :b1: at :w2: (no difference) and at :b3: (no difference).

There are a lot of variations and I could have easily made an oversight. However, the point is not whether I'm right or wrong; the point is that observers realize why I play the moves I play. Isn't that the point of Malkovich games? Anyways, hopefully I've made some sense behind my contradicting play of 63 from 61.

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:30 am
by Magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:40 am
by Magicwand
cdybeijing wrote:To Magicwand:

You said "influence will grow exponentially." I really want to understand this point and I was wondering if you could elaborate a bit more? It's not clear to me from your last comment.


that one move is like a peak of a mountain.
it oversees everything on the board.
i have marked stones it is effecting. and also points it is effecting
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . W . . B . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . W . . . . . , B O . |
$$ | . X . . . . W . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . X O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . x x |
$$ | . O X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . x x |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x x |
$$ | . . W . B . . B . 1 . . . . . . . x x |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , B . . |
$$ | . . B . B . B . W . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . W . W W . . . . . . . . W X . |
$$ | . . W W . . . X X , . . B . W W X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . B W . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



now think if it is black.. all my white group loses it's influence and become a target.
his right side invasion point become harder for me to go in.
my upper influence become null.
it is like 180 degree different.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . W . . B . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . W . . . . . , B O . |
$$ | . X . . . . W . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . X O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . x x |
$$ | . O X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . x x |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x x |
$$ | . . W . B . . B . 1 . . . . . . . x x |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , B . . |
$$ | . . B . B . B . W . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . W . W W . . . . . . . . W X . |
$$ | . . W W . . . X X , . . B . W W X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . B W . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:50 am
by Magicwand
for obs:
his last move below is a mistake.
although it looks one point better for black..actually it was a trick.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


below is correct answer.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


if you are curious..i want obs to think about it why i say this..

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:08 am
by Joaz Banbeck
My prediction:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The reasoning behind this prediction is this: Black has 3.5 corners. White is going for influence, and plans invading and cutting. So Black needs more influence. The absolute last thing that he wants to do at this point is create another group because then white would have two weak groups to attack. So black has to get that needed influence by working from an existing group.
My proposed move gets more influence, strengthens the weak group, prepares invasions/reductions up top, and prepares an encirclement of white's center stones.

Also, white is threatening sequences like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . 2 X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:25 pm
by SpongeBob
Joaz Banbeck wrote:My prediction:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The reasoning behind this prediction is this: Black has 3.5 corners. White is going for influence, and plans invading and cutting. So Black needs more influence. The absolute last thing that he wants to do at this point is create another group because then white would have two weak groups to attack. So black has to get that needed influence by working from an existing group.
My proposed move gets more influence, strengthens the weak group, prepares invasions/reductions up top, and prepares an encirclement of white's center stones.

Also, white is threatening sequences like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . 2 X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

To me, Joaz's move feels kinda slow. Also, white get's more influence and the R10 stone is starting to feel frightened ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . B W . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Maybe H8 or J8 instead and threaten to cut of the white group below?

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:45 pm
by topazg
SpongeBob wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:My prediction:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The reasoning behind this prediction is this: Black has 3.5 corners. White is going for influence, and plans invading and cutting. So Black needs more influence. The absolute last thing that he wants to do at this point is create another group because then white would have two weak groups to attack. So black has to get that needed influence by working from an existing group.
My proposed move gets more influence, strengthens the weak group, prepares invasions/reductions up top, and prepares an encirclement of white's center stones.

Also, white is threatening sequences like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . 2 X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

To me, Joaz's move feels kinda slow. Also, white get's more influence and the R10 stone is starting to feel frightened ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . B W . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Maybe H8 or J8 instead and threaten to cut of the white group below?


I agree, I was thinking J8 or D7 depending on how adventurous Black feels.

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:57 pm
by Solomon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There are probably 1,283,105 ways for me to make life in this area (H11 helps immensely). However, making life is not enough. I need to do so in a way that minimizes W's profit. W's top is very strong and pretty much guaranteed territory for him, so my move seeks to 'borrow strength' from it. It makes little difference for W's top to get stronger as it is already strong (= overconcentrated), but a tremendous difference for B's center group to get stronger. W also needs to keep an eye on F17.

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:27 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
SpongeBob wrote:...
Maybe H8 or J8 instead and threaten to cut of the white group below?

topazg wrote:I agree, I was thinking J8 or D7 depending on how adventurous Black feels.


You guys are going in the wrong direction. The white stones up north are strong enough to expand and threaten black while doing so. The white stones to the south are not.

EDIT: It appears that Araban agrees with me.

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:39 pm
by topazg
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
SpongeBob wrote:...
Maybe H8 or J8 instead and threaten to cut of the white group below?

topazg wrote:I agree, I was thinking J8 or D7 depending on how adventurous Black feels.


You guys are going in the wrong direction. The white stones up north are strong enough to expand and threaten black while doing so. The white stones to the south are not.

EDIT: It appears that Araban agrees with me.


Sure, I can buy the top being more important, but J12 doesn't really do anything other than encourage White to get thick. K12, H14, G14, lots of moves make sense on the top if that's the direction you want to play, but J12 doesn't.

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:48 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
topazg wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
SpongeBob wrote:...
Maybe H8 or J8 instead and threaten to cut of the white group below?

topazg wrote:I agree, I was thinking J8 or D7 depending on how adventurous Black feels.


You guys are going in the wrong direction. The white stones up north are strong enough to expand and threaten black while doing so. The white stones to the south are not.

EDIT: It appears that Araban agrees with me.


Sure, I can buy the top being more important, but J12 doesn't really do anything other than encourage White to get thick. K12, H14, G14, lots of moves make sense on the top if that's the direction you want to play, but J12 doesn't.


That may be why Araban is stronger than I. :-?

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:30 pm
by topazg
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
That may be why Araban is stronger than I. :-?


Hehe, and stronger than me too!

We're probably both wrong, or right for the wrong reasons, or something :) (Or possibly both right but in the wrong context for this particular game)

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:27 pm
by cyclops
than I or than me?