Tami's Way

Create a study plan, track your progress and hold yourself accountable.
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Re: Tami's Way

Post by Tami »

I finally took the plunge and bought 基本定石使い方事典 (Dictionary: How to Use Basic Joseki). The only real reason for my hesitation was that I have already bought a lot of books, and even with my daily improving reading speed in Japanese, I do need time to work through them. There's nothing sadder than a shelf full of dusty, unread books.

Also, my copy of Chess for Zebras by Jonathan Rowson finally arrived yesterday morning. I have been devouring it apace, despite the great distraction of having had to volunteer at a long Halloween party immediately after it was delivered.

First, I have several books on joseki, including Takao`s big two-volume reference book. However, what I fancy about How to Use Basic Joseki (another MyCom book, btw) is that is combines solutions to several of my needs.

* It is selective - 35 featured joseki (with others en passant)
* It includes detailed discussion of follow-ups
* Each featured joseki is introduced through a set of three whole-board problems - is the joseki a good choice and why?
* Successes and failures are explained, with other ways of playing included
* Nice diagrammatic index at the beginning - useful for reference
* It's printed in a larger format than usual, with big diagrams and easily legible print (a welcome courtesy to a non-native reader and presumably to Japan`s greying target audience)

With this book I can fill up some spaces in my knowledge and train my skills.

The issue I have with Takao`s joseki dictionary, for instance, is that it tells you lots of ways to play, but it`s very difficult to make any kind of inroads on it as an object of study. It`s useful for post-game reference, and sometimes quite enjoyable to read in itself, but reading it feels somewhat like trying to learn French by memorising a dictionary.

Books like 38 Basic Joseki (out of date and I don't know if I still have a copy back in Albion) and Takemiya's 24 Basic Joseki are selective, which at least gives you a feeling of creating scaffolding for further learning, but still involve you only in a passive way - you read the book and try to remember, but you don`t do a lot of thinking.

Then there are many pocket books, which are basically cheap puzzle books asking you to find the correct continuation, but they are seldom useful to me because explanations, if any, are brief and bald (this flavour: "White plays here, Black answers and the result is equal"), and because they tend to be haphazard in their structure.

The problem with dense reference books is that it is difficult to read them in a structured way. The problem with selective instruction books is that you read them too passively. The problem with puzzle books is that although they make you think, they don`t provide enough frameworks or explanation to support your thinking.

This book, How to Use Basic Joseki, seems to solve all three problems. You get reference material (alternative joseki and follow-ups), you get instruction and structure so that you don`t feel lost, and you are actively engaged in the learning process. I believe the two points are crucial: to improve your skill, you must learn to think for yourself, but you need guidance from a higher place. Books that tell you only what to think will not benefit you nearly as much as books that train you to think well.

Further, it might well be worth investing $25 dollars on it even if you don`t read Japanese - with very minimal kanji recognition you can extract a lot from it.

Those are my first impressions, not a review.

As for Rowson. As John said, it`s a very good go book! I don`t play chess any more, but it`s plain to see that many of the issues that affect chessers affect us stoners. People memorise chess openings, but can`t play chess very well; people memorise joseki and fuseki, but cannot play go well.

Many of the things I have been talking about are addressed by Rowson - for instance, what I have referred to a relational memory is discussed.

He brings up the role of words in chess thinking. They start off by being helpful, but eventually they become hindrances by overloading the working memory. Grandmasters think in a much more abstract, streamlined way, with minimal use of words to describe the relationships that they process in their minds.

Apply this to go: go principles are of great help, but they can also be great obstacles. For a long while, I have noticed how very difficult it is to keep reminding myself of verbal principles while considering a move in a real game situation. It is as though they impede thinking rather than facilitate it. Analogy time: at some point you have to study grammar to progress at a second language, but you have to avoid consciously thinking about grammar in order to speak the language. It can be tedious talking to language-learners because you can see the cogs turning behind their eyes, when you already know what they are trying to say.

One exercise Rowson recommends is to take a position from a master game, give yourself about 20 minutes, and then try to work out what happened. Afterwards, compare your game with the real one. It can be instructive to see how your impressions of what was important turned out to be different from what the players thought.

I am certainly going to try this the next time I play through a professional go game - I will stop a several places, and try to play the game for myself, and then compare with the actual game. I have no doubt that it will greatly challenge my ideas about size, urgency, aji, shape and everything else!

The key here is developing thinking skills - it may be rather humbling to find that your thoughts about a position were completely out of tune, but discovering this for yourself and learning how to get back in key should be much more beneficial than merely being told what to think.

To summarise, verbal principles are something to be mastered and then transcended. The goal has to be to learn to see go relationships in an abstracted way, a wordless way that gets straight to the real relationships between stones. That, I believe, is skill.

And this brings me to the last point. I am certain I have now finally identified the most important skill of all, the skill that brings everything else into frame. But, I`m not going to tell you what it is :lol: Napoleon Hill-style, I will give you a hint:

When you`re driving a car, what is the most crucial thing to do?


And because I`m not a cruel teaser, he`s one more hint:

What should a musician do before all else?
Last edited by Tami on Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tami's Way

Post by Bill Spight »

Tami wrote:
When you`re driving a car, what is the most crucial thing to do?


Close your eyes before the crash.

;)
The Adkins Principle:
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Post by EdLee »

Tami,
Tami wrote:When you're driving a car, what is the most crucial thing to do?
I think that's a trick question, with multiple valid answers, but I'll play along anyway:
Get there safely. (Not quickly, but safely.)
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Re: Tami's Way

Post by Tami »

EdLee wrote:Tami,
Tami wrote:When you're driving a car, what is the most crucial thing to do?
I think that's a trick question, with multiple valid answers, but I'll play along anyway:
Get there safely. (Not quickly, but safely.)


I`m sorry, but that`s not the answer I had in mind. The thing I`m thinking of, though, would certainly help you to get there safely.

It`s not a trick question...
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Re: Tami's Way

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Tami wrote:The problem with dense reference books is that it is difficult to read them in a structured way.


This is so only for those (too many) reference (joseki) books lacking good structure. It is much easier to read reference books that have good structure.

the role of words in chess thinking. They start off by being helpful, but eventually they become hindrances by overloading the working memory. [...] go principles are of great help, but they can also be great obstacles.


Bad words are a burden - good words are and remain helpful.

Bad principles are a burden - good principles are and remain helpful.

verbal principles are something to be mastered and then transcended.


It can be an advantage (you furthermore claim "skill") to enable oneself to apply good principles so fluently that one does not need to mentally spell out them explcitily whenever using them. Even then, it is an advantage to be able to recall principles explicitly whenever needed for greater precision.

Grandmasters think in a much more abstract, streamlined way, with minimal use of words to describe the relationships that they process in their minds.


I buy "abstract" and "streamlined", but not "minimal use of words", unless this shall just refer to what you call "transcended".

For a long while, I have noticed how very difficult it is to keep reminding myself of verbal principles while considering a move in a real game situation.


The better the principles are the easier and more fruitful it becomes.

The goal has to be [...] a wordless way that gets straight to the real relationships between stones.


This does not require wordless thinking. Quite contrarily, the better the words and principles become that one's thinking uses (on the literal surface or in a "transcended" manner), the better the "real" relationships between stones can be assessed.

That, I believe, is skill.


That is what --- I --- consider to be a skill: knowing good and better terms and principles.

When you`re driving a car, what is the most crucial thing to do?


Stay alive and keep everybody else alive.

What should a musician do before all else?


Make oneself and everybody else happy.

But... what has this to do with terms and principles?!
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Re: Tami's Way

Post by NoSkill »

To drive a car is to focus on where you are going or doing?
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Re: Tami's Way

Post by RobertJasiek »

Like all car examples, this one does not work:) I guess Tami wants fluent car driving = fluent language speaking = fluent instrument playing = fluent go decision making. There is nothing wrong with fluency, but there are more important skills such as staying alive in a car or making correct go decisions.
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Re: Tami's Way

Post by Cassandra »

Tami wrote:Apply this to go: go principles are of great help, but they can also be great obstacles. For a long while, I have noticed how very difficult it is to keep reminding myself of verbal principles while considering a move in a real game situation. It is as though they impede thinking rather than facilitate it. Analogy time: at some point you have to study grammar to progress at a second language, but you have to avoid consciously thinking about grammar in order to speak the language. It can be tedious talking to language-learners because you can see the cogs turning behind their eyes, when you already know what they are trying to say.


Cassandra wrote:He must forget all of his knowledge !!!

He must regain the childish attitude, he had in the very beginning. Then, the sword will be an integral part of his flesh, blood, and mind.
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
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Re: Tami's Way

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RobertJasiek wrote:Like all car examples, this one does not work:) I guess Tami wants fluent car driving = fluent language speaking = fluent instrument playing = fluent go decision making. There is nothing wrong with fluency, but there are more important skills such as staying alive in a car or making correct go decisions.


Sorry, but that is not the answer.

NoSkill is on the right lines.

BillSpight came closest in spirit, even if he was joking.

I`m not going to be too coy. If anybody wants me to tell them, just send a PM and I will be glad to tell them. Like all great truths, the answer will seem a bit disappointing, but you`ll know when you have found it because it makes everything else fall into place. The only thing I will add, though, is that what I have in mind sounds very easy, but is in fact very difficult to do in practice. But if you can improve your ability in this one skill, even I from my own very modest level can guarantee you will play better. You will know why - it's obvious, once you realise it.

As for all the business about principles. The MyCom books are full of excellent guidance from some of the world`s best players. They are indeed very useful. But go is extremely difficult. Some things simply cannot be contained by words. Rowson quotes a famous chess master, Alapin, as once saying that words "give the illusion of understanding". Just buy Rowson`s book, and read how a grandmaster (ranked 150 in the world, btw) describes his own thinking. Even allowing that chess and go are different games, the implications for badukeers are profound.
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Re: Tami's Way

Post by RobertJasiek »

So the skill you want to stress is "know what you want to achieve"? I like it that you contribute to discussing the fundamentals.

Some things simply cannot be contained by words.


Since go is a complete information game, anything can, in principle, be expressed by words. Part of the things can be expressed already now, other parts have not been described well in terms of words and still must be expressed by move sequences (accompanied by the trivial words "probably correct").

words "give the illusion of understanding".


From the overall perspective during the middle game, understanding is always partial. So, in this context, there can be an illusion of complete understanding.

A top player's chosen moves convey also an only partial understanding and also can be an illusion of complete understanding.

Words are not a danger but are a chance to express what is and what is not being understood clearly. Understanding in today's world is so far advanced because words about knowledge are excessively shared. Words have the same potential for advancing understanding of go knowledge.
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Re: Tami's Way

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RobertJasiek wrote:Since go is a complete information game, anything can, in principle, be expressed by words. Part of the things can be expressed already now, other parts have not been described well in terms of words and still must be expressed by move sequences (accompanied by the trivial words "probably correct").


Dear Robert, you can describe a Bach fugue in words easily enough, but does that explain it?

I might concede the possibility of providing a verbal description of any go situation, but it might not facilitate understanding. Just for example, I challenge you to explain in words why a geta works in a way that is better than simply showing. If you need to use a diagram, you lose.

hanekomu wrote:My guess would be:

Mushin

Something like "to effortlessly apply what you have learned".
My guess would be:

Mushin

Something like "to effortlessly apply what you have learned".


A nice idea, and it may be possible to perform the skill well without effort once you have completely mastered it, but it`s still not the answer I have in mind.

It`s nothing special really. Think really mundane, really blindingly obvious, and you might find it. As I say, you`ll know when you have the answer.
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Post by EdLee »

Tami,
Tami wrote:I`m sorry, but that`s not the answer I had in mind. The thing I`m thinking of, though, would certainly help you to get there safely
I still think there are multiple valid answers to your question.
Perhaps to you, there is something more crucial than getting there safely,
but to me, that's the most important thing.
Of course, for any human to be able to do anything at all, there must be more fundamental things: say, to breathe,
because if we don't breathe for a few moments, we're already in big trouble.
So if someone replies, the most crucial thing is to breathe,
then you can say, oh no, that's not what you have in mind,
even though "breathing would certainly help you to get there safely."
Then another person says, OK, what's more crucial than to breathe? Aha! How about to exist first?
Then you say, oh no, that's not what you have in mind,
even though "existing would certainly help you to breathe, which in turn would help you to get there safely."
It becomes a word game. :)

In other words, I think it's the original formulation (phrasing) of the question that's the problem -- it's too extreme.
For example:
"When you're eating, what's the most crucial thing to do?"
"When you're sleeping, what's the most crucial thing to do?"
"When you're crossing the street, what's the most crucial thing to do?"
All these questions, IMO, are too vague, ill-defined, imprecise, and leave themselves open to arguments.
(Which is OK if the point is to generate arguments and discussions).

So I'd much prefer these variations instead -- they are much more reasonable (to me):
"When you're driving, what are some of the most important things to do?"
"When you're [doing X], what are some of the most important things to do?"
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Re:

Post by Tami »

EdLee wrote:Tami,
Tami wrote:I`m sorry, but that`s not the answer I had in mind. The thing I`m thinking of, though, would certainly help you to get there safely
I still think there are multiple valid answers to your question.
Perhaps to you, there is nothing more crucial than getting there safely,
but to me, that's the most important thing.
Of course, for any human to be able to do anything at all, there must be more fundamental things: say, to breathe,
because if we don't breathe for a few moments, we're already in big trouble.
So if someone replies, the most crucial thing is to breathe,
then you can say, oh no, that's not what you have in mind,
even though "breathing would certainly help you to get there safely."
Then another person says, OK, what's more crucial than to breathe? Aha! How about to exist first?
Then you say, oh no, that's not what you have in mind,
even though "existing would certainly help you to breathe, which in turn would help you to get there safely."
It becomes a word game. :)


You were getting on track for a moment, but I`m not trying to be cute or anything.

There is one skill that I am sure sets everything else in frame. It`s easy, in principle, but actually very difficult to execute well. The good news is that you don`t need to buy any books to practice it. You can practice this skill in every game you play, and when you look over a pro game, and when you solve a tsumego or whole-board problem. I`m currently not very good at this skill, but now I know it, I can work on it with confidence it will help me improve.

One more hint:

What is one of the commonest remarks people make after being shown a strong move?


As I say, I am not trying to be too clever for my own good. It is simply that something occurred to me, and it`s so obvious that I had never given it any proper thought before, but when I did its significance was astounding. You will know it when it comes to you, but anybody who wants to save themselves the effort can just send me a PM. I recommend trying your best to work it out for yourself, first, though, because if you were simply told it might come over trivial, but if it comes to you from within, it will make sense.
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Post by EdLee »

Tami wrote:I am certain I have now finally identified the most important skill of all
I am certain there is no such thing. :)
(There are many skills that are very important, yes, but nothing is "the most important of all". Nothing.)
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Re: Tami's Way

Post by RobertJasiek »

Tami wrote:you can describe a Bach fugue in words easily enough, but does that explain it?


Music is not a complete information game. What I say for a complete information game need not apply to music.

I challenge you to explain in words why a geta works in a way that is better than simply showing.


(I prefer 'net' to 'geta' and 'capture' to 'work'.)

Citation from Joseki 1 Fundamentals, p. 129:

"A net is a capture that contains some opposing strings very tightly even if they try to escape, and one that does not allow ladder breakers."


EDIT: removed alternative definition.
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